Tendulkar/Hobbs vs Marshall/McGrath

[kyear2]

Yes and this is called downplaying McGrath stat weakness. Because you see context here and not other places.

It literally wasn't.

You're literally the only who can't see that.

 

[shortpitched713]

I'm not sure who were comparing at this point tbh.

Marshall and Viv

 

[kyear2]

Choosing Grace but not Barry does seem odd frankly.

It's hypocritical and goes purely off of preconceived notions and a refusal to even acknowledge one could be not right Bout something. Plus it would challenge his beliefs about Sunny and that's off the table.

You believe Barry didn't play enough, but in context neither have O'Reilly, Pollock, Headley, even Bumrah (modern context)

With regards to my first paragraph, I know that you believe that I do the same with Imran. (You're going to bring it up anyways).

Nothing I say will make a difference to you, but...

Wasim is the perfect 1st change and old ball bowler. He's rated by many as the best old ball bowler and with old and new ball, reverse and conventional swing, he can move the ball both ways. And you brought me over to Wasim. It made sense, the skill set is there, he suffered from the lack of catching support and he has the peer rating to back it up.

Quality wise Imran definely shouldn't slip past the 2nd team, but to me, and you will strenuously disagree. An attack of Hadlee, Ambrose and Steyn to me is better and with Hadlee the need for batting is reduced and Steyn covers the reverse swing requirement.
I know how you feel about Ambrose, and Steyn's ability with the old ball, but I simply disagree.

Contrary to what you believe and as I've said,there is an argument for Imran in a first XI, but it's entirely based on an argument and philosophy that I legitimately disagree with. How can I select a bowler that far down my ranking order based purely on his skills as a batsman, esscpiclaly when his bowling would be so crucial to the success of the team. As I've said to you before, for me it's the equivalent of replacing Sachin with Hammond because I want the perfect cordon and a 6th bowler, while ignoring their primary job.

That was my conciliatory pitch and explanation which you will no doubt ignore and frame to suit your perspective. But we'll never see most of the game the same, not with regards to Imran or Barry. You think catching is immaterial and negligible, superfluous even, while in my decades of watching the game it's been critical, crucial and consequesntial, game changing.

Where we fall out, is that you frame your entire view point and perspective of the game around your favorite player, period, and literally everything flows from that.

Anyways, this isn't the space for such, and I've said my piece.

 

[kyear2]

I mean that's the whole discussion Shortpitched and Xix started, you agree with that just in the post directly above, lol.

But that's my point. No one takes either that seriously and you then ignored even moderate arguments and stated back with the "Root better than insert player here', argument.

 

[kyear2]

Why?? Barry played in the premium competition of his time 4 decades, 2 decade as the unquestioned best and a whole decade averaging twice as much as the next best??? Extremely dumb take, expected better from you guys too really.

How is he even remotely comparable to players of the modern era? You have absolutely no idea.
Different time, different era, different game. You've never seen hit hit a throw a ball, far less bat or bowl. There's a reason he isn't rated my most, among modern players. He's best compared against his contemporaries.

The question with regards to who's skills would be be transferable to the modern test arena isn't even one with discussing. If you can rate one player based purely on an archaic version of the first class game, surely you can one who was a modern master who dominated and was exceptionally rated by modern bowlers.

Then again, I believe you're literally the only one who places him in such regard, so it's inconsequential.

 

[capt_Luffy]

How is he even remotely comparable to players of the modern era? You have absolutely no idea.
Different time, different era, different game. You've never seen hit hit a throw a ball, far less bat or bowl. There's a reason he isn't rated my most, among modern players. He's best compared against his contemporaries.

The question with regards to who's skills would be be transferable to the modern test arena isn't even one with discussing. If you can rate one player based purely on an archaic version of the first class game, surely you can one who was a modern master who dominated and was exceptionally rated by modern bowlers.

Then again, I believe you're literally the only one who places him in such regard, so it's inconsequential.

How is Barry remotely comparable to Zack Crawley??? Imo, he might not make into a Ranji team.
Tbf, that's also you and Barry.

 

[subshakerz]

It's hypocritical and goes purely off of preconceived notions and a refusal to even acknowledge one could be not right Bout something. Plus it would challenge his beliefs about Sunny and that's off the table.

You believe Barry didn't play enough, but in context neither have O'Reilly, Pollock, Headley, even Bumrah (modern context)

With regards to my first paragraph, I know that you believe that I do the same with Imran. (You're going to bring it up anyways).

Nothing I say will make a difference to you, but...

Wasim is the perfect 1st change and old ball bowler. He's rated by many as the best old ball bowler and with old and new ball, reverse and conventional swing, he can move the ball both ways. And you brought me over to Wasim. It made sense, the skill set is there, he suffered from the lack of catching support and he has the peer rating to back it up.

Quality wise Imran definely shouldn't slip past the 2nd team, but to me, and you will strenuously disagree. An attack of Hadlee, Ambrose and Steyn to me is better and with Hadlee the need for batting is reduced and Steyn covers the reverse swing requirement.
I know how you feel about Ambrose, and Steyn's ability with the old ball, but I simply disagree.

Contrary to what you believe and as I've said,there is an argument for Imran in a first XI, but it's entirely based on an argument and philosophy that I legitimately disagree with. How can I select a bowler that far down my ranking order based purely on his skills as a batsman, esscpiclaly when his bowling would be so crucial to the success of the team. As I've said to you before, for me it's the equivalent of replacing Sachin with Hammond because I want the perfect cordon and a 6th bowler, while ignoring their primary job.

That was my conciliatory pitch and explanation which you will no doubt ignore and frame to suit your perspective. But we'll never see most of the game the same, not with regards to Imran or Barry. You think catching is immaterial and negligible, superfluous even, while in my decades of watching the game it's been critical, crucial and consequesntial, game changing.

Where we fall out, is that you frame your entire view point and perspective of the game around your favorite player, period, and literally everything flows from that.

Anyways, this isn't the space for such, and I've said my piece.

Why are you making this about Imran if I agreed with you about Barry vs Grace?

Anyways you think I make it about Imran but I have proved several times I am willing to change my opinions in ways that would not upgrade him. I changed for Steyn over Imran for example. I even changed my opinion to rate Kallis bowling as not overrated recently. You do a disservice to present my views like a caricature.

 

[Johan]

But that's my point. No one takes either that seriously and you then ignored even moderate arguments and stated back with the "Root better than insert player here', argument.

are you saying Xix and SP are in the wrong?

 

[kyear2]

How is Barry remotely comparable to Zack Crawley??? Imo, he might not make into a Ranji team.
Tbf, that's also you and Barry.

That's an incredibly ignorant statement.

There is no difference is skill or pace between what Lillee, Snow, Procter was throwing down in the 70's and what's presented today.

Just because you say so, doesn't make it so.

 

[kyear2]

are you saying Xix and SP are in the wrong?

I'm saying it's not black and white, but they've obviously taken it wayyyy too far.

I've stated my case with regards to Hobbs, depending on perspective he's clearly the 2nd best batsman of all time. The basis for his brilliance being what he accomplished pre war when the conditions for batting and standard for same were levels below where he was.

I've also said that if I were the Avengers and going through time to collect my infinity stones of players to save the world, he isn't quite in the first team with Hutton, because I'm more of positive with what I'm getting from the other guy.

And while I know you disagree with that, it's not an indefensible notion.

We agree on more things than we disagree about, the sole areas of disagreement being what occured before WWI, and I don't doubt Hobbs's brilliance in his era.

 

[kyear2]

Why are you making this about Imran if I agreed with you about Barry vs Grace?

Anyways you think I make it about Imran but I have proved several times I am willing to change my opinions in ways that would not upgrade him. I changed for Steyn over Imran for example. I even changed my opinion to rate Kallis bowling as not overrated recently. You do a disservice to present my views like a caricature.

I don't think it's a caricature, but there is intent in a lot of your views. You've openly targeted the two players that you've seen as a threat to Imran's rankings, like literally in your own words. You've deliberately underrated them to highlight you're perceived gulfs. You've also gone out of your way to down grade the importance of catching to further push those narratives.

The crazy thing though is that no one rates Kallis over Imran as an all rounder, and even though it's more competitive for me as players, Imran's still ahead because he's a higher rated bowler than Kallis is a bat, even if I value Kallis's auxiliary skills more. There was never a challenge.

In any event, while I appreciate spirited, intellectually honest debate, I have no interest in the endless rounds of disingenuous or ill spirited arguments.

You and Smali are convinced I have some personal or political agenda vs Imran, no such thing. But there's also no doubt that what happened at home happened, it also doesn't remove him from a top 10 performer as a bowler though.

 

[subshakerz]

You and Smali are convinced I have some personal or political agenda vs Imran, no such thing.

You definitely have an agenda but I never called it political. And your problem is you assume anyone you calls it out is biased themselves.

And I think it's just lazy to say everything I do here is just about one cricketer. I don't even rate Imran as highly as many others.

 

[subshakerz]

I've stated my case with regards to Hobbs, depending on perspective he's clearly the 2nd best batsman of all time. The basis for his brilliance being what he accomplished pre war when the conditions for batting and standard for same were levels below where he was.

I've also said that if I were the Avengers and going through time to collect my infinity stones of players to save the world, he isn't quite in the first team with Hutton, because I'm more of positive with what I'm getting from the other guy.

You can't simultaneously rate Hobbs so high and then consider him inadmissible for an ATG XI. That is contradictory.

And because of that, Thanos will win.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's an incredibly ignorant statement.

There is no difference is skill or pace between what Lillee, Snow, Procter was throwing down in the 70's and what's presented today.

Just because you say so, doesn't make it so.

The irony of you saying a statement is ignorant while saying Grace sucks, sucks on itself.

 

[Migara]

Imran easily in top 5 cricketers. I put him in top 2.

 

[subshakerz]

In any event, while I appreciate spirited, intellectually honest debate, I have no interest in the endless rounds of disingenuous or ill spirited arguments.

I think a part of you actually appreciates our engagement because you begrudgingly agree with me on many points and even adopt many of my arguments but you will never come out and say it. If you really hate it, feel free to put me in ignore mode again honestly to give yourself the mental space. You are much more abusive towards me and I never replied in kind.

For the record, my issues with you are twofold: a) you aren't consistent in your criteria you use to assess cricketers, and this is clear to not just me but several of us and b) despite excessively long responses, you don't engage with the actual arguments of your interlocutors that don't suit you. This leads to many unproductive exchanges.

I don't care how you rate Imran. I just care you stick to one standard. Plenty of others here rate him even lower than you and I don't have a bone to pick with them. Same issue with Barry, Sunny, etc.

I called for a truce a long time ago but you rebuffed it.

Hence like Batman and Joker we are cursed to play out this dance for eternity or as long CW lasts.

 

[sayon basak]

Hence like Batman and Joker we are cursed to play out this dance for eternity or as long CW lasts.

Put this as your signature imo.

 

[subshakerz]

Put this as you signature imo.

Hmm...will consider.

 

[Johan]

.

Hence like Batman and Joker we are cursed to play out this dance for eternity or as long CW lasts.

 

[subshakerz]

I was thinking of their last scene in the Dark Knight when I made that statement.