Swinging both ways

[Richard]

Matthew Inness was a very good exponent of it.

Remember Craig telling me that in about 2001. Went absolutely out of all way to get a glimpse of him when he played for Northants after that.

Wasn't disappointed.

 

[Uppercut]

Hoggard and Sidebottom have both struggled considerably with their inability to bowl the one that curves into a like-hander (ie, Sidebottom bowl an outswinger to a RHB, Hoggard bowl an inswinger to a RHB). They can make it go the other way with reverse-swing, but both only get minimal amounts of reverse-swing, compared to the lavish conventional-swing both can muster almost without trying.

Hmm- i remember Hoggy setting up Graeme Smith several times with balls leaving him back when he was his bunny. Maybe the angle just made it look like they were swinging away, it's hard to tell sometimes.

 

[Uppercut]

Does Johnson actually bowl an outswinger, as such? I've only ever seen him - like Michael Kasprowicz before him (and obviously in the other direction as Kasprowicz was a right-armer) - bowl the swinger in one direction and the cutter in the other.

And more oddly still, with the cutter being the stock-ball and the swinger the change-up.

It definitely moves in the air towards the slips. I'm not sure why exactly, his seam position doesn't look like it would allow that, but it certainly happens.

 

[oitoitoi]

It definitely moves in the air towards the slips. I'm not sure why exactly, his seam position doesn't look like it would allow that, but it certainly happens.

Are you sure, it usually just looks like angle to me.

 

[Richard]

Hmm- i remember Hoggy setting up Graeme Smith several times with balls leaving him back when he was his bunny. Maybe the angle just made it look like they were swinging away, it's hard to tell sometimes.

Hoggard was excellent around that time (not just against Smith) at bowling straight-on balls which were apparently undetectable from his stock-standard out(to-the-RHB)swinger. I honestly never saw him specifically make it go the other way.

He can of course also bowl an off-cutter, but it's nowhere near as good as Chaminda Vaas'.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Johnson gets the ball to curve away. It's sort of like the same thing as when you throw a jugs ball - the natural path (for a left hand thrower) is for it to swing away from the batsman, slide across. And for the right hand thrower, it swings back in to a RHB. Can also be seen when throwing the ball over a long distance.

Supposedly Rob Cassell, who is/was a super talented bowler who was struck down with numerous back injuries, used this ball as his variation ball to his stock outswinger. It meant that the seam actually came out with the ball pointing towards slip still, but the ball just slung in late rather than going away from the batsman.

 

[Uppercut]

Are you sure, it usually just looks like angle to me.

Saw the hawkeye red-path thingy of it a few times during the series in Australia (where he bowled it all the time) and it did indeed curve slightly in the air. Much to my surprise tbh, always presumed the same as you.

 

[DaRick]

Does Johnson actually bowl an outswinger, as such? I've only ever seen him - like Michael Kasprowicz before him (and obviously in the other direction as Kasprowicz was a right-armer) - bowl the swinger in one direction and the cutter in the other.

And more oddly still, with the cutter being the stock-ball and the swinger the change-up.

Well, his outswinger is the inswinger to lefties. He also reverses the ball inwards, sometimes both ways in the air (one delivery to nail Morne Morkel at Melbourne, for instance). He bowls the cutter away from the right-handers. If you ask me, he can generate reverse-swing more consistently.

Brett Lee can swing it both ways conventionally, although only a marginal amount and his inswinger is often offline. He can also reverse it inwards prodigiously (ala to Prasanna Jayawardene at Brisbane).

Glenn McGrath developed an outswinger, but he was, of course, never known as a swinger.

Blokes like Mike Hendrick, Chris Old and Geoff Arnold were classic English swing bowlers - they could make the ball do anything in the right conditions, but were otherwise fairly useless.

Nathan Bracken can swing it both ways prodigiously in the right conditions, but his relative lack of pace helps.

RP Singh had a booming outswinger and could get some reverse swing, but he was often unfamiliar with such trivialities as economy rate and consistency.

Ben Hilfenhaus just has an outswinger, which is more effective when conditions suit.

 

[Richard]

Johnson gets the ball to curve away. It's sort of like the same thing as when you throw a jugs ball - the natural path (for a left hand thrower) is for it to swing away from the batsman, slide across. And for the right hand thrower, it swings back in to a RHB. Can also be seen when throwing the ball over a long distance.

I can see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'd call that swing as such. It's just the combination of his low arm and the natural cut that his action puts on the ball. By swing I'm referring to the putting of the seam upright, canting it in the standard direction, and making it swing. He certainly does this when swinging it into the RHB.

As I say though, I've never studied it with collossal detail so I'm not claiming he doesn't bowl a (to-the-RHB) outswinger, just that when I have seen him move it away it's been a combo of angle, low arm and natural cutter.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you, hence why I never used the term "swing". Still, if he can continue to combine that with conventional swing inwards as he did in South Africa, it will be very effective.

One reason why you rarely see people playing Test cricket who swing the ball both ways is because for the large majority of bowlers it takes a change in action that is easily picked by batsmen at district of FC level, let alone International. More subtle changes generally work far more effectively at that level, because they can be disguised easily.

 

[Richard]

Being as I am currently in the middle of attempting to learn to bowl inswingers with a comparable action to my standard outswinger, I'm only too well-versed in this. It's incredibly difficult.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Blokes best versed in it tend to be front on bowlers, because from there it tends to be just a change of wrist position if you are a pure chest-on bowler. Where as side on bowlers often need more than just a change of wrist position to get themselves into a position to bowl an inswinger.

 

[Manee]

Being as I am currently in the middle of attempting to learn to bowl inswingers with a comparable action to my standard outswinger, I'm only too well-versed in this. It's incredibly difficult.

Are you sure you would need to concentrate on not changing your action? I doubt many club batsmen will know that a change of action will mean the ball will swing the other way - or at least not in the split second between the action and delivery.

 

[Lambu]

Praveen Kumar should be right up there with the best swing bowlers going around.

 

[oitoitoi]

Problem is once it stops swinging he's got nothing.

 

[Richard]

Are you sure you would need to concentrate on not changing your action? I doubt many club batsmen will know that a change of action will mean the ball will swing the other way - or at least not in the split second between the action and delivery.

I can't even bowl an inswinger very well currently; I'm going to worry about getting it working properly first and bowling it with a samey action second.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I can't believe no one's made an obvious bisexual themed joke yet.

 

[Richard]

Blokes best versed in it tend to be front on bowlers, because from there it tends to be just a change of wrist position if you are a pure chest-on bowler. Where as side on bowlers often need more than just a change of wrist position to get themselves into a position to bowl an inswinger.

Yeah - and I'm a flat-out side-on bowler (as anyone who's seen the pics of my bowling-action knows). I also bowl with a lowish arm, which combined with my natural wrist position puts the seam into absolutely the perfect release for the outswinger. I only took the slightest notice of this for the first time a year ago. Until then I'd just bowled outswing because that was what happened when I released the ball. I knew I was doing it and I knew it was a good thing to do, but I'd never thought about why I did it.

I have trained on raising my arm and can now bowl outswing and a very, very vague inswinger with the higher arm. The high-arm outswinger is nowhere near so effective as the low-arm outswinger though. And this illustrates the difficulties associated with both-ways swing.

 

[SJS]

Its not easy to swing both ways consistently. The actions are so different that even the few players who have managed to master it for some time have mostly found the stress on the muscles a bit too much. So mostly bowlers have swung one way and the movement in the other direction has been mostly off the seam. These bowlers lasted much longer without damaging their shoulders. Statham is a prime example as is Shackleton I think.

Many bowlers have actually even lost their original swing when they have tried to master the other since the different action made them lose something of their original action. Swing bowlers are very sensitive to action changes and there are many examples of players suddenly losing their ability to swing. Mostly it is because of subtle changes in action which they (nor their coaches) are at times able to exactly pin point.

Most really successful top class bowlers, who managed to swing the other (second) direction, did it a bit later in their careers after having become complete bowlers and matured in their basic swing. Even then many of them used the second swing very rarely due to the effect on the muscles.

 

[Richard]

I can't believe no one's made an obvious bisexual themed joke yet.

They've probably made it too many times in the 1,535 previous threads and realise how samey it'll be if they make it for the umpteenth time.

TBH.