Superior Bowler: Vaas or Gillespie?

[Scallywag]

againts a second string windies batting line-up

He took Chanderpauls wicket, and he took 6/22.

All he does is bowl against the players he comes up against.

And he did a damn fine job.

 

[Shane Warne]

againts a second string windies batting line-up

Good point.

 

[Richard]

As shown by his 504 wickets at just over 21.

Oh sorry, I forget, he's got 288 @ 29.10.

And as shown by the breakdown of Vaas into pretty much exactly half-and-half good and bad (a breakdown that doesn't work with McGrath) which gives Vaas a better average than McGrath's career average.

 

[aussie]

And as shown by the breakdown of Vaas into pretty much exactly half-and-half good and bad (a breakdown that doesn't work with McGrath) which gives Vaas a better average than McGrath's career average.

what??? , this is very confusing

 

[marc71178]

Go on then, break it down - and define how you've decided he bowled well.

I guess it'll just be all innings in which he's averaged under 20.

Because that'd mean he's below McGrath, ignoring the fact the McGrath does it time and again.

 

[Richard]

I already did it somewhere - I'm not doing it again.
If you only took the innings in which he'd averaged under 20 it'd amount to about 1\4 at best and he'd average about 14.
Instead, you can take near half and his average is better than McGrath.
Which shows what everyone with a decent grasp knows - when Vaas is good he's better than McGrath, and when he's bad he's worse than virtually no-one.

 

[marc71178]

Except for it to be fair you need to take McGrath's best 1/4 or his best half if you're going to attempt a comparison, what makes me think you won't do that?

 

[aussie]

I already did it somewhere - I'm not doing it again.
If you only took the innings in which he'd averaged under 20 it'd amount to about 1\4 at best and he'd average about 14.
Instead, you can take near half and his average is better than McGrath.
Which shows what everyone with a decent grasp knows - when Vaas is good he's better than McGrath, and when he's bad he's worse than virtually no-one.

i dont care how much u twist & turn these little facts, Vaas at his best is nowhere near to pigeon at his best, jesus show me a better bowling perfomace than Vaas has produced at lord's or a better series performance than his 30 wickets in 4 test in the WI in 99????

 

[tooextracool]

It does - it doesn't mean he can't swing the ball conventionally or move it off the seam.

no but i was arguing the point that he was a 'master of swing'. because the fact is that he isnt.

 

[tooextracool]

Regarding Vaas being no good on a green top...

Personally, I haven't seen much of him bowling on one, but he exploited it pretty darn well in Darwin or Cairns (can't remember which one it was, but one of them was a real seamer), getting good hoop and the ball cutting even further once it hit the pitch.

vaas isnt very good when the ball is swinging, hes certainly more than capable on a green top.

 

[Richard]

Except for it to be fair you need to take McGrath's best 1/4 or his best half if you're going to attempt a comparison, what makes me think you won't do that?

No, you don't need to do said - because everyone knows that McGrath doesn't have an utterly polarised playing persona.
To do that for McGrath would be utterly pointless.

 

[Richard]

i dont care how much u twist & turn these little facts, Vaas at his best is nowhere near to pigeon at his best, jesus show me a better bowling perfomace than Vaas has produced at lord's or a better series performance than his 30 wickets in 4 test in the WI in 99????

Assuming you mean McGrath produced at Lord's, try this one, or this one, or this one.
For a series, try this one.
Vaas, of course, has had far, far fewer opportunities as he's never played a series of more than 3 Tests.

 

[Richard]

no but i was arguing the point that he was a 'master of swing'. because the fact is that he isnt.

No, he isn't, but nor are that many people.

 

[Richard]

vaas isnt very good when the ball is swinging

No, he just hasn't been yet. He's rarely got the chance to bowl with a ball which has remained in good condition. He is, of course, fantastic with the brand-new ball (when bowling well) but usually it doesn't last for very long.
If he were to get the chance more often I reckon he'd probably take it.

 

[aussie]

Assuming you mean McGrath produced at Lord's, try this one, or this one, or this one.
For a series, try this one.
Vaas, of course, has had far, far fewer opportunities as he's never played a series of more than 3 Tests.

ok those are good, first that series performace againts the windies was excellent but since i saw that series i still rate Pigeons 30 in 99 ahead of that. Based on the Knady test as well i saw that one, he bowled tidily & got wickets but it wasn't a magnificent bowling performance.I cant comment much on his performace in naiper but the stats their are excellent....

 

[tooextracool]

No, he just hasn't been yet. He's rarely got the chance to bowl with a ball which has remained in good condition. He is, of course, fantastic with the brand-new ball (when bowling well) but usually it doesn't last for very long.
If he were to get the chance more often I reckon he'd probably take it.

hes had plenty of chances before, and hes always looked very ordinary. its a bit like saying batty isnt a poor bowler, he just hasnt bowled well yet.

 

[Swervy]

hes had plenty of chances before, and hes always looked very ordinary. its a bit like saying batty isnt a poor bowler, he just hasnt bowled well yet.

thats taking a bit too far TEC..hehehehe

 

[Richard]

hes had plenty of chances before, and hes always looked very ordinary. its a bit like saying batty isnt a poor bowler, he just hasnt bowled well yet.

So - how many chances, precisely, has Vaas had where he should have been conventionally-swinging the ball and didn't manage to, or managed to and didn't get his line right?
Because I'd venture that it's not that many.

 

[Richard]

ok those are good, first that series performace againts the windies was excellent but since i saw that series i still rate Pigeons 30 in 99 ahead of that. Based on the Knady test as well i saw that one, he bowled tidily & got wickets but it wasn't a magnificent bowling performance.I cant comment much on his performace in naiper but the stats their are excellent....

If you weren't so blindly pro-everything-Australian I might be inclined to take your word about the relative performances.
I'd reckon Vaas has matched McGrath on several occasions.

 

[tooextracool]

So - how many chances, precisely, has Vaas had where he should have been conventionally-swinging the ball and didn't manage to, or managed to and didn't get his line right?
Because I'd venture that it's not that many.

westpac park 97, newlands 98,queens 99-00, harare 99-00, newlands 00-01, edgbaston 02, wanderers 02-03, supersport park 02-03, galle 04-05 vs SA, and probably a few more.