Stuart Law granted British citizenship

[bryce]

on the subject(sort of) what do you english think about craig spearman's chances of playing for england? i heard he was a genuine possibility for the one-dayers

 

[Nate]

Law really should play for England, but yea, I doubt it will happen.

 

[marc71178]

on the subject(sort of) what do you english think about craig spearman's chances of playing for england? i heard he was a genuine possibility for the one-dayers

Not a chance.

 

[Richard]

on the subject(sort of) what do you english think about craig spearman's chances of playing for england? i heard he was a genuine possibility for the one-dayers

Zero, I hope.
He's getting on too.

 

[Richard]

If the next man is born & raised in South Africa...

I'm not saying there is any moral or ethical superiority in being English-born or English-raised, but there has to be a difference.

I'm Irish enough to play for the Ireland Football or Rugby team (maternal grandfather Irish), but it doesn't make me Irish!

Why does there have to be a difference?
What does it matter where you were born and raised - all that matters is that the team you are picked for you do your best for and enjoy the success of.
I have never seen any of the South Africans who played for England as in the slightest different to any English Public-School boy.
Nor any Brit, frankly, different to the next one wherever they come from - English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish - Britain is one big family now, y'know - any contrary argument is contemptible and restrictive of progress - just like those Eurosceptics. Euroscepticism is the biggest danger to Britain's chances of keeping-up with... well, everything, really.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Why does there have to be a difference?
What does it matter where you were born and raised - all that matters is that the team you are picked for you do your best for and enjoy the success of.
I have never seen any of the South Africans who played for England as in the slightest different to any English Public-School boy.
Nor any Brit, frankly, different to the next one wherever they come from - English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish - Britain is one big family now, y'know - any contrary argument is contemptible and restrictive of progress - just like those Eurosceptics. Euroscepticism is the biggest danger to Britain's chances of keeping-up with... well, everything, really.

I think it really depends on what you understand difference to mean.

I'm not suggesting non-English born/raised are any less deserving of playing for England (I think you'd be hard pushed to find a prouder Englishman than the Madras-born Nasser Hussain), but as we're all products of our upbringing & environment there has to be a qualitative difference between growing up in England & growing up in South Africa.

The differences can be as superficial as one's accent or as ingrained as one's very belief system. If I, like Nasser, had been taken to another country at 6 I would suggest that the societal norms & values I was exposed to may have shaped my mores differently to my English upbringing.

 

[Richard]

Which has what, precisely, to do with playing sport?
Of course there are going to be different cultures etc. - but none of that comes into playing cricket or anything else.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Which has what, precisely, to do with playing sport?
Of course there are going to be different cultures etc. - but none of that comes into playing cricket or anything else.

Er, nothing; but you seem to be suggesting there is no difference between a South African & an English upbringing. I'm merely trying to demonstrate I think there is.

Let's use an example: Craig White; Yorkshire born, Victoria raised. I presume you consider him English?

 

[Langeveldt]

And Basil D'Oliveira, Robin Smith, Allan Lamb et al were as English as the next man - because regardless of their upbringing and qualification, they were picked for England and gave their all when reprisenting us, which is all they can be asked to do.

Langebaanweg doesn't sound so English..
I guess if they reaped the "rewards" of being brought up in a cricket mad Australia or SA, then they are at a bit of an unfair advantage are they not?? (Im not against them playing for England, just playing a bit of DA)

 

[Richard]

Er, nothing; but you seem to be suggesting there is no difference between a South African & an English upbringing. I'm merely trying to demonstrate I think there is.

Let's use an example: Craig White; Yorkshire born, Victoria raised. I presume you consider him English?

I consider him English for all cricketing intents-and-purposes.
I'm perfectly well aware that there's differences between English and non-English upbringing, but what has that to do with playing cricket?
Precisely nothing.

 

[Richard]

Langebaanweg doesn't sound so English..
I guess if they reaped the "rewards" of being brought up in a cricket mad Australia or SA, then they are at a bit of an unfair advantage are they not?? (Im not against them playing for England, just playing a bit of DA)

Well - that's the lookout of the country that lost them, isn't it?
Scavanging of unwanted talent is one of the keys to good sport managementship.
So is making best use of your ability - if that means going somewhere where you'll get the best education then returning to where it can best be utilised, so be it.
You see that tack used all the time, in all sorts of WOLs.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I consider him English for all cricketing intents-and-purposes.
I'm perfectly well aware that there's differences between English and non-English upbringing, but what has that to do with playing cricket?
Precisely nothing.

Well no, it has quite a lot to do with playing cricket when you think about the exposure to different playing conditions, but that's beside the point I was trying to make.

I said explicitly in the hope of not being misunderstood that I don't think it's morally of ethically better to have English-born and/or English-raised players playing for us, but notwithstanding that there is a difference nevertheless. If I had a twin brother who after being born in England was immediately spirited away to South Africa & raised in, say, Cape Town. He could certainly claim to be more South African than me, so, by extension could I not claim to be more "English" than him?

I don't think I can explain it any more clearly.

 

[Mister Wright]

I'm actually on Richard on this one. (It is rare to actually read posts when posters enter into a long argument with Richard, but surprisingly they are short and very readable). If you are born and or raised in another country and decide to move to be able to play for another country - that cannot be an easy decision to make, and it shouldn't be taken for granted by that player. Of course every individual situation is different, but IMO if a player has made the decision to move than they should be given every opportunity to play test cricket regardless of where they were born or raised - if in their mind they consider themselves loyal enough to play - they should.

 

[bryce]

Not a chance.

i just looked at his List A records over the last two english domestic seasons and he has 1788 runs@45.85 with three centuries, surely a better option than solanki ?

 

[marc71178]

I prefer to look at Indernational records where they exist.

 

[bryce]

yeah well spearman never had that sort of consistency when he was in NZ - not even at domestic level and maybe he is a much better player now, he has also recently lashed out at NZ's poor wickets and sub-standard facilities

 

[Richard]

Well no, it has quite a lot to do with playing cricket when you think about the exposure to different playing conditions, but that's beside the point I was trying to make.

I said explicitly in the hope of not being misunderstood that I don't think it's morally of ethically better to have English-born and/or English-raised players playing for us, but notwithstanding that there is a difference nevertheless. If I had a twin brother who after being born in England was immediately spirited away to South Africa & raised in, say, Cape Town. He could certainly claim to be more South African than me, so, by extension could I not claim to be more "English" than him?

I don't think I can explain it any more clearly.

Of course you could claim to be more English than him - but if he came back and the two of you decided to play for England (and were equally good enough to do so of course) then there's not the slightest difference between you again.
I don't think I can explain it clearer than that.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I'm actually on Richard on this one. (It is rare to actually read posts when posters enter into a long argument with Richard, but surprisingly they are short and very readable). If you are born and or raised in another country and decide to move to be able to play for another country - that cannot be an easy decision to make, and it shouldn't be taken for granted by that player. Of course every individual situation is different, but IMO if a player has made the decision to move than they should be given every opportunity to play test cricket regardless of where they were born or raised - if in their mind they consider themselves loyal enough to play - they should.

Judas!

Seriously tho, just to reiterate my position in case I've been misunderstood, I've no problem at all with anyone coming over & playing for us (Robin Smith was my fav player growing up), but I do think there's a difference between being an English player & an English-qualified player. That’s all.

Of course you could claim to be more English than him

That's as close as I'm ever gonna get to a concession from the old boy, so I'll call it quits there.

 

[Langeveldt]

You could of course go the whole hog and say that most Aussies/Kiwis/Saffers/Rhoadies are all distantly English anyway.. SO the mother country is always winning

 

[GotSpin]

You could of course go the whole hog and say that most Aussies/Kiwis/Saffers/Rhoadies are all distantly English anyway.. SO the mother country is always winning