Steve Waugh vs Everton Weekes

[kyear2]

I've heard that batting average tends to be an excellent accumulator of these factors into one stat.

I assume we're always assuming we're comparing players of similar average and we're just comparing contrasting styles.

 

[Coronis]

Really wasn't, but you do believe as you wish.

You're always trying with these gotcha moments.

You’re always making idiotic posts which leave you open to “gotcha” moments.

It’d be nice if you stepped up and owned your opinions/posts once in a while instead of hiding and saying “ooh thats not what I meant”

 

[Coronis]

I assume we're always assuming we're comparing players of similar average and we're just comparing contrasting styles.

We’re not in this thread, or many other comparison threads.

 

[capt_Luffy]

To each their own and I'm aware all players have their usefulness.

But I fail to see how they are more attractive or useful. They can end up disadvantaging their team or putting them behind the 8 ball just as readily as they can help.
Yes a quicker scorer can get our earlier, but so can the slower batsman, but while an aggressive player is at the crease they can only be an asset.

Such players can be huge assets when playing for a draw...... Like if it's a 5th Day, I need a draw; I would 100% want Gavaskar and Boycott to bat over Sachin and Viv. Man; the ability of a player who in general puts a higher price tag on their wicket (due to restricting themselves to play shorts) is definitely useful in plentiful of situations. In a normal situation, I won't want Hayden and Sehwag or Boycott and Barrington to bat together; I would want a balance of the two.

 

[kyear2]

Such players can be huge assets when playing for a draw...... Like if it's a 5th Day, I need a draw; I would 100% want Gavaskar and Boycott to bat over Sachin and Viv. Man; the ability of a player who in general puts a higher price tag on their wicket (due to restricting themselves to play shorts) is definitely useful in plentiful of situations. In a normal situation, I won't want Hayden and Sehwag or Boycott and Barrington to bat together; I would want a balance of the two.

Fair point, but a Viv or Lara is equally able of buckling down and batting sensibly when required. They didn't always go gung ho
.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Fair point, but a Viv or Lara is equally able of buckling down and batting sensibly when required. They didn't always go gung ho
.

I didn't meant like they will give their wickets easily; they're some of the finest batsmen world has ever seen; I just meant there are multiple situations when how much time you spend on crease becomes more important than runs you score; and doing that is easier for someone like Gavaskar than Richards. I don't mean if needed Richards can't; I still remember that de Villiers knock in Nagpur, I just mean it's easier for Gavaskar than Richards.

 

[shortpitched713]

Doesn't rate Viv, but loves Barrington and Sutcliffe.... Thinks Davidson is better than Lillee, ummmmm.

Man, that ain't nothin' @Coronis.

I've got Weekes as my 4th ATG batsman, peak Imran greater allrounder than peak Sobers, Shaun Pollock a top tier ATG allrounder right up with Imran, Hadlee and Miller, Ashwin a top tier spinner with Murali and Warne, and modern openers being wildly underrated among others ( and then of course aforementioned Philander and Hayden ). You've got to pump up your unconventional opinions mate.

 

[shortpitched713]

Also, I think spinners of same quality as pacers tends to average higher; (Warne 25, Kumble 29, etc.) that might make it seem I rate Indian spinners too high).

Well, yes they average higher, but the real question is can their advantages (mostly just ability to bowl longer spells, potentially take more wickets in a match) make up for that? I think you can only take maybe 1-3 runs max off the average of a spinner to account for this, and that's for a typical attack with maybe 1 or 2 spinners. More spinners than that and you get no advantage from that ability. So to me, the only Indian spinner I can end up rating along with the ATG pacers is Ashwin (although I do rate him very highly, comparable with Warne, below Murali).

 

[capt_Luffy]

Well, yes they average higher, but the real question is can their advantages (mostly just ability to bowl longer spells, potentially take more wickets in a match) make up for that? I think you can only take maybe 1-3 runs max off the average of a spinner to account for this, and that's for a typical attack with maybe 1 or 2 spinners. More spinners than that and you get no advantage from that ability. So to me, the only Indian spinner I can end up rating along with the ATG pacers is Ashwin (although I do rate him very highly, comparable with Warne, below Murali).

Fair enough. Though I don't think Ashwin and Kumble had that huge of a difference..... I generally put more importance in WPM than others for spinners; as it shows their importance in the team. I think in general it's expected for Spinners to be more expensive while producing breakthroughs when needed. Spinners like Kumble, Qadir, Gibbs, Vettori, Mushtaq, Swann, etc. have really not an average to boast for but have really good WPM. Though, I won't blame anyone for putting more value in average; how much a bowler costs for each wicket they take is really important also. I think a difficult group of Indian spinners to judge are the spin quarter of India. They don't have much good averages; but what do you expect having 4 spinners and at times no pacers in your team; in pitches like Australia and England.
And for context; I only put 3 spinners (Warne, Murli, O'Reilly) among the highest tier of bowlers and four others (Ashwin, Grimmett, Kumble, Laker) in a tier below.

 

[shortpitched713]

Fair enough. Though I don't think Ashwin and Kumble had that huge of a difference..... I generally put more importance in WPM than others for spinners; as it shows their importance in the team. I think in general it's expected for Spinners to be more expensive while producing breakthroughs when needed. Spinners like Kumble, Qadir, Gibbs, Vettori, Mushtaq, Swann, etc. have really not an average to boast for but have really good WPM. Though, I won't blame anyone for putting more value in average; how much a bowler costs for each wicket they take is really important also. I think a difficult group of Indian spinners to judge are the spin quarter of India. They don't have much good averages; but what do you expect having 4 spinners and at times no pacers in your team; in pitches like Australia and England.
And for context; I only put 3 spinners (Warne, Murli, O'Reilly) among the highest tier of bowlers and four others (Ashwin, Grimmett, Kumble, Laker) in a tier below.

It's tough, because that whole pace quartet era for India (and even some decades after), was generally sub-optimal bowling composition and performance. Kumble was the pick of the 90s - 00s group, but ultimately it just was a phenomenally poor bowling group away from home.

Ashwin shines now, and you can argue having a competent pace attack helps, but Kumble simply was not the level of excellence or breakthrough threat that Ashwin is, even given all of the challenging factors he dealt with. He simply did admirably and manfully given what was around him, but ATG bowler that does not make for mine.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's tough, because that whole pace quartet era for India (and even some decades after), was generally sub-optimal bowling composition and performance. Kumble was the pick of the 90s - 00s group, but ultimately it just was a phenomenally poor bowling group away from home.

Ashwin shines now, and you can argue having a competent pace attack helps, but Kumble simply was not the level of excellence or breakthrough threat that Ashwin is, even given all of the challenging factors he dealt with. He simply did admirably and manfully given what was around him, but ATG bowler that does not make for mine.

Fair enough. As I said; if we are taking like top 15 bowlers, both aren't there for me also. Ashwin also has a abysmal away record, especially in Australia and South Africa; and I do think Kumble was ultimately the one leading the bowling even while away. And as I said about the spin quartet era; you can't win away matches with four spinners and no paces..... There records are nothing to boast, but I can atleast see why; and do think with some proper pacers like now, their output would had increased significantly.

 

[Coronis]

Man, that ain't nothin' @Coronis.

I've got Weekes as my 4th ATG batsman, peak Imran greater allrounder than peak Sobers, Shaun Pollock a top tier ATG allrounder right up with Imran, Hadlee and Miller, Ashwin a top tier spinner with Murali and Warne, and modern openers being wildly underrated among others ( and then of course aforementioned Philander and Hayden ). You've got to pump up your unconventional opinions mate.

View attachment 38078

Yes yes these are all things to be extremely proud of.

I don’t think anyone here questions Peak Imran > Peak Sobers? So I wouldn’t count that.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes yes these are all things to be extremely proud of.

I don’t think anyone here questions Peak Imran > Peak Sobers? So I wouldn’t count that.

He said he only thinks Sobers is the 7th best allrounder of all time or something because batting allrounders aren't real. That's pretty spicy.

 

[kyear2]

Yes yes these are all things to be extremely proud of.

I don’t think anyone here questions Peak Imran > Peak Sobers? So I wouldn’t count that.

You do know the poll was tied, at least the last time I checked.

 

[kyear2]

He said he only thinks Sobers is the 7th best allrounder of all time or something because batting allrounders aren't real. That's pretty spicy.

Pretty something.....

 

[Coronis]

You do know the poll was tied, at least the last time I checked.

I don’t recall this poll, was it a career or specifically a peak poll?

 

[kyear2]

I don’t recall this poll, was it a career or specifically a peak poll?

Very specific peak poll. Sobers up one at the moment

 

[shortpitched713]

He said he only thinks Sobers is the 7th best allrounder of all time or something because batting allrounders aren't real. That's pretty spicy.

I think the ATG bowling all-rounders have much greater match winning capability and value than either of Sobers or Kallis, which I think could be pretty easily shown.

However, this leads me into this really weird place where I'm having to acknowledge that great bowlers in general have this leg up on all batsmen, and I'm having to rate all of them over even the greatest non Bradman bats, which just feels wrong, and is making me start to reconsider this whole take.

 

[shortpitched713]

Very specific peak poll. Sobers up one at the moment

I didn't try to cherry pick this. I wasn't aware of the Imran peak, when I was looking to challenge what I thought was the all time best Waqar peak. Sobers' peak is also incredible, but as Imran's has such a stupendous ( sub 16 average ), bowling peak within it, I think it's definitely the better and more valuable of the two.

 

[kyear2]

I didn't try to cherry pick this. I wasn't aware of the Imran peak, when I was looking to challenge what I thought was the all time best Waqar peak. Sobers' peak is also incredible, but as Imran's has such a stupendous ( sub 16 average ), bowling peak within it, I think it's definitely the better and more valuable of the two.

Wasn't intimating that it was.

Just meant it was exactly what he was referring to.