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Steve Waugh as Australian Captain - How good was he?
- Thread starter Jono
- Start date
howardj
International Coach
Tugga's piece de resistance, as far as his ruthlessly revnenous reign is concerned, was at Jo'burg in 2002. That's when this generation reached their peak. Have a look at the team, and the demolition!: [URL="http://Tugga's piece de resistance, as far as his ruthlessly revnenous reign is concerned, was at Jo'burg in 2002. That's when this generation reached their peak. Have a look at the team, and the demolition!:
http://aus.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/AUS_IN_RSA/SCORECARDS/AUS_RSA_T1_22-26FEB2002.html
http://aus.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/2001-02/AUS_IN_RSA/SCORECARDS/AUS_RSA_T1_22-26FEB2002.html
Last edited:
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
That had far, far more to do with South African hopelessness than Australian skill.
Both Hayden and Gilchrist were dropped in the teens by Kallis.
Some of the worst collective batting I've ever seen from a side with that amount of ability. Few if any good deliveries, poor strokes aplenty.
For me the peak of Australia was the Fifth Test in 2001. Since then the Waughs went downhill, and IMO the side, even if it's still been easily good enough for most sides, cannot be considered better without the Waughs in tip-top touch.
Both Hayden and Gilchrist were dropped in the teens by Kallis.
Some of the worst collective batting I've ever seen from a side with that amount of ability. Few if any good deliveries, poor strokes aplenty.
For me the peak of Australia was the Fifth Test in 2001. Since then the Waughs went downhill, and IMO the side, even if it's still been easily good enough for most sides, cannot be considered better without the Waughs in tip-top touch.
tactically mark taylor was superior and in terms of leading by example, i consider border superior, waugh was a tough competitor and a very good captain but in my opinion, he had it much easier than his two predecessors but all credit to him for cashing in and making the most of it i guess....
deeps
International 12th Man
I think Waugh was better than Taylor.
Waugh pretty much inherited a talented and good team. Australia would win most of it's games under Taylor. Once waugh took over, and a few months in, Australia became a great team. Unbeatable. It always took some magnificent individual performances to defeat the aussie side. Wether it be a Lara special, or a Laxman and Dravid tag team, it always took a miracolous innings to beat Waugh's aussies.
Even the one day side, was formidable. Losses to teams like Bangladesh would NEVER have been heard of.
So Waugh took over a good team, made them great. Once Waugh left, Ponting took over, and a few months in, Pontings team has gone from great, to merely good.
Now, it could be just coincidence, and people say 'mcgrath and warne are getting old.'
The fact of the matter is, Warne is still bowling extremely well. Mcgrath, prior to this VB series, has been bowling well. Yet Australia lost the ashes, lost to bangladesh, and cracks are beginning to show everywhere.
Waugh may not have LOOKED to be the best captain. He didn't always talk to the bowlers after every bad ball, or look very supportive when something went wrong. He had his style of captaining. There is only so much a captain can do on the field. Getting the players in the right mindset, has to be done BEFORE the game. We don't know how waugh was before games, but by all records he was good. He is a master of mind games. The other captains feared him... Except for one.. Sourav Ganguly.
Waugh had a similar list of players available to him, as Taylor did. Waugh did greater things.
Ponting had a similar list as waugh. Waugh did greater things
Waugh pretty much inherited a talented and good team. Australia would win most of it's games under Taylor. Once waugh took over, and a few months in, Australia became a great team. Unbeatable. It always took some magnificent individual performances to defeat the aussie side. Wether it be a Lara special, or a Laxman and Dravid tag team, it always took a miracolous innings to beat Waugh's aussies.
Even the one day side, was formidable. Losses to teams like Bangladesh would NEVER have been heard of.
So Waugh took over a good team, made them great. Once Waugh left, Ponting took over, and a few months in, Pontings team has gone from great, to merely good.
Now, it could be just coincidence, and people say 'mcgrath and warne are getting old.'
The fact of the matter is, Warne is still bowling extremely well. Mcgrath, prior to this VB series, has been bowling well. Yet Australia lost the ashes, lost to bangladesh, and cracks are beginning to show everywhere.
Waugh may not have LOOKED to be the best captain. He didn't always talk to the bowlers after every bad ball, or look very supportive when something went wrong. He had his style of captaining. There is only so much a captain can do on the field. Getting the players in the right mindset, has to be done BEFORE the game. We don't know how waugh was before games, but by all records he was good. He is a master of mind games. The other captains feared him... Except for one.. Sourav Ganguly.
Waugh had a similar list of players available to him, as Taylor did. Waugh did greater things.
Ponting had a similar list as waugh. Waugh did greater things
Autobahn
State 12th Man
Nah i think Warne's content nowadays playing the big-fish in the little pond at hampshire. All captaincy will do now is just speed up the aging process for warne.GoT_SpIn said:To me waugh was a great captain due to his tactics and mind set. Though it would of been interesting to see Warne been given Captain duties after waugh retired. Unlikely that will ever happen though
Waugh was a great captain - but what suprises me is the lack of respect Allan Border gets in this thread.
Border was arguably the greatest captain in the history of the game, and the best I've seen in my lifetime. I agree with Dean Jones, without Border, Taylor and Waugh would be nothing. Captain Grumpy ran a tough school where perfection was demanded of a group of green horns.
Seriously, Australia overacheived near the end of the 80s. No way they should have won the world cup or regained the Ashes in 1989, but young men like Taylor stood up under his leadership. Border rebuilt the Australiam team and without him they wouldn't have had a platform for success in the 90s.
After losing to NZ twice, England twice and the West Indies, Border was just plain sick of losing and became what Australia needed. Teams didn't do fielding drills that much before Border... but Border wanted perfection.
Best of all, he led by example. He certainly wasn't the most talented Australian batsman, and he was built around three strokes. But he'd do insane things to prevent his wicket from being taken. He'd take bouncers into his body. There was no tougher or more durable a cricketer ever. He got runs by a force of will - in the same way Warne has a way of doing that when the chips are down.
I have never seen or heard of a cricketer who sold his wicket at such a high price.
As for Waugh - he was great. Better than Taylor because Taylor got slack on dead rubbers. Waugh hated dead rubbers and wanted to win everything, he was relenting and never gave up. Similar to Border in that he demanded perfection, though without Border he'd be nothing. But Waugh never wanted to give the opposition a chance. I agree with David Lloyd - he's what apitomises Australian cricket for me.
The finest contribution Waugh made was the tradition of handing over the baggy green. He loved that thing and took more pride in it than any other Australian it would seem. So insted of just casually giving it to somebody, he made a deal out of it. I think Waugh instilled a great deal of Australian pride into his team mates.
Yeah he had a great squad, but so did Australia going into the Ashes. You need attrition and dicipline from leaders. Insted Australia dropped catches, got wickets off no balls and Ponting kept on calling for conferences on what to do. He looked uncertain. It's OK to ask team mates for advice, especially with Warne and McGrath in the team, but one has to also stamp some authority on the game. Warne was more of a captain that series than Ponting and he brought Australia back from the grave many times in that series.
If I were ranking the top 5 Australian captains ever it would be:
1. Allan Border
2. Ian Chappell
3. Steve Waugh
4. Don Bradman
5. Greg Chappell
Richie Benaud just misses out.
Border was arguably the greatest captain in the history of the game, and the best I've seen in my lifetime. I agree with Dean Jones, without Border, Taylor and Waugh would be nothing. Captain Grumpy ran a tough school where perfection was demanded of a group of green horns.
Seriously, Australia overacheived near the end of the 80s. No way they should have won the world cup or regained the Ashes in 1989, but young men like Taylor stood up under his leadership. Border rebuilt the Australiam team and without him they wouldn't have had a platform for success in the 90s.
After losing to NZ twice, England twice and the West Indies, Border was just plain sick of losing and became what Australia needed. Teams didn't do fielding drills that much before Border... but Border wanted perfection.
Best of all, he led by example. He certainly wasn't the most talented Australian batsman, and he was built around three strokes. But he'd do insane things to prevent his wicket from being taken. He'd take bouncers into his body. There was no tougher or more durable a cricketer ever. He got runs by a force of will - in the same way Warne has a way of doing that when the chips are down.
I have never seen or heard of a cricketer who sold his wicket at such a high price.
As for Waugh - he was great. Better than Taylor because Taylor got slack on dead rubbers. Waugh hated dead rubbers and wanted to win everything, he was relenting and never gave up. Similar to Border in that he demanded perfection, though without Border he'd be nothing. But Waugh never wanted to give the opposition a chance. I agree with David Lloyd - he's what apitomises Australian cricket for me.
The finest contribution Waugh made was the tradition of handing over the baggy green. He loved that thing and took more pride in it than any other Australian it would seem. So insted of just casually giving it to somebody, he made a deal out of it. I think Waugh instilled a great deal of Australian pride into his team mates.
Yeah he had a great squad, but so did Australia going into the Ashes. You need attrition and dicipline from leaders. Insted Australia dropped catches, got wickets off no balls and Ponting kept on calling for conferences on what to do. He looked uncertain. It's OK to ask team mates for advice, especially with Warne and McGrath in the team, but one has to also stamp some authority on the game. Warne was more of a captain that series than Ponting and he brought Australia back from the grave many times in that series.
If I were ranking the top 5 Australian captains ever it would be:
1. Allan Border
2. Ian Chappell
3. Steve Waugh
4. Don Bradman
5. Greg Chappell
Richie Benaud just misses out.
tooextracool
International Coach
i honestly dont think of waugh as anything more than ok as captain. in terms of the mental aspect of captaincy or astute field placing waugh was lacking. despite having what was arguably the best australian side in the last 20 years he lost in india and SL, and then couldnt beat the WI in WI in 99. where waugh excelled was in creating a cohesive unit, and his determination to succeed rubbed off on some of the other players.
SquidAU
First Class Debutant
For mine, Steve Waugh just put his stamp on a already good team to make it a dominating one.
Border, in my time, was the best Aussie captain. To bring a team of young lads to wrest the Ashes back from the Poms and win the World Cup when we were losing during the 80's, was a great achievment.
Border, in my time, was the best Aussie captain. To bring a team of young lads to wrest the Ashes back from the Poms and win the World Cup when we were losing during the 80's, was a great achievment.
Gavaskar and Boycott were more talented players than Border. They had a great stroke-range etc. Border gave up on shots that better players could have hit so he wouldn't give away his wicket.
In fact, Boycott chased down a narrow 200+ score Gary Sobers set for England once. Sobers wanted to make a sporting geusture and keep the game alive and Boycott took the oppurtunity. Boycott was more of a subdued scorer than somebody who sold his wicket at a high price. That doesn't mean Boycott never went for his shots.
Gavaskar's a better example and he challenges Border. Gavaskar never minded being beaten in the opening session, just as long as he was there by the end of the day. Tremendous resistence to pace. However, as the day went on, Sunni got better and better - Border was always a little battler as the Australians say I believe.
For me it's still Border based completely on the fact that he wasn't the most talented player. His force of will to stay at the crease was incredible. Once Sunni got settled he was fine... so was Boycott... once players get settled they feel their eyes' in and they go for more shots. Border never did that.
Waugh's a bit like that in that he gave up on the pull. How many times have we seen Allan Donald bowl him bouncers only for Waugh to continually duck under them. Waugh's harder than Gavaskar and Boycott, because again, he wasn't the most talented. The idea behind Waugh and Border's success with the bat was to leave balls that inticed shots they weren't good at and outlast the bowler with patience until he puts the ball in areas you like. That's a very tough art that takes great determination.
As far as Waugh's success or lack there of...
Firstly, Brian Lara at his best, for me, has to be the second greatest batsman of all time. That is, when he was at his very very best. The 1999 tour of the West Indies saw Lara perform at his absolute peak and hope as I might, I doubt I'll ever see a better batting performance. Secondly, both Ambrose and Walsh got themselves back into top form and were amazing.
Australia, on the other hand, had a horrificly out-of-form Warne and got dropped for the last test. Healey was over the hill and was in the team when Gilchrist should have been. Waugh was upset with the players who conspired to break cerfue (can't spell) so they could party. The only good thing about the Australian's that tour was Glenn McGrath... who really was in one of his best periods ever. I tell you, there's not much Waugh could have done that tour with Lara as he was at his best and the Australian team looked old.
In late 1999 when Australia got started with that streak, Healey was gone, Warne sort of ressurrected his career at the 1999 world cup. Guys like Hayden and Langer were coming up and Waugh then had a better team. He led them to a 16 game streak. This was broken in India when India set a world record for the best comeback in the modern game. That's what it took to stop Waugh... something that had never happened before. Waugh lost in Sri Lanka when the last two games were washed out so I wouldn't judge him there. It's not
lost on me that he had a brilliant team, but like I said... a brilliant team needs dicipline and somebody to lead them. Look what happened to the World XI team - they were far more talented than the Aussies. Muralitharan was fuming because he played well, but the players just lacked direction. A captain is essential in cricket. I seriously doubt that any team can improve without one unifying leader in the team.
As far as Waugh does, he wasn't as great as Worrell, Llyod, Richards, Gower, Border, Chappell etc. But without him Australia certainly would have dropped a game in that streak. No doubt in my mind - he was the biggest reason why Australia had that streak and broke the record.
In fact, Boycott chased down a narrow 200+ score Gary Sobers set for England once. Sobers wanted to make a sporting geusture and keep the game alive and Boycott took the oppurtunity. Boycott was more of a subdued scorer than somebody who sold his wicket at a high price. That doesn't mean Boycott never went for his shots.
Gavaskar's a better example and he challenges Border. Gavaskar never minded being beaten in the opening session, just as long as he was there by the end of the day. Tremendous resistence to pace. However, as the day went on, Sunni got better and better - Border was always a little battler as the Australians say I believe.
For me it's still Border based completely on the fact that he wasn't the most talented player. His force of will to stay at the crease was incredible. Once Sunni got settled he was fine... so was Boycott... once players get settled they feel their eyes' in and they go for more shots. Border never did that.
Waugh's a bit like that in that he gave up on the pull. How many times have we seen Allan Donald bowl him bouncers only for Waugh to continually duck under them. Waugh's harder than Gavaskar and Boycott, because again, he wasn't the most talented. The idea behind Waugh and Border's success with the bat was to leave balls that inticed shots they weren't good at and outlast the bowler with patience until he puts the ball in areas you like. That's a very tough art that takes great determination.
As far as Waugh's success or lack there of...
Firstly, Brian Lara at his best, for me, has to be the second greatest batsman of all time. That is, when he was at his very very best. The 1999 tour of the West Indies saw Lara perform at his absolute peak and hope as I might, I doubt I'll ever see a better batting performance. Secondly, both Ambrose and Walsh got themselves back into top form and were amazing.
Australia, on the other hand, had a horrificly out-of-form Warne and got dropped for the last test. Healey was over the hill and was in the team when Gilchrist should have been. Waugh was upset with the players who conspired to break cerfue (can't spell) so they could party. The only good thing about the Australian's that tour was Glenn McGrath... who really was in one of his best periods ever. I tell you, there's not much Waugh could have done that tour with Lara as he was at his best and the Australian team looked old.
In late 1999 when Australia got started with that streak, Healey was gone, Warne sort of ressurrected his career at the 1999 world cup. Guys like Hayden and Langer were coming up and Waugh then had a better team. He led them to a 16 game streak. This was broken in India when India set a world record for the best comeback in the modern game. That's what it took to stop Waugh... something that had never happened before. Waugh lost in Sri Lanka when the last two games were washed out so I wouldn't judge him there. It's not
lost on me that he had a brilliant team, but like I said... a brilliant team needs dicipline and somebody to lead them. Look what happened to the World XI team - they were far more talented than the Aussies. Muralitharan was fuming because he played well, but the players just lacked direction. A captain is essential in cricket. I seriously doubt that any team can improve without one unifying leader in the team.
As far as Waugh does, he wasn't as great as Worrell, Llyod, Richards, Gower, Border, Chappell etc. But without him Australia certainly would have dropped a game in that streak. No doubt in my mind - he was the biggest reason why Australia had that streak and broke the record.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Australia certainly didn't overachieve in 1989 - anyone but anyone could have thrashed that pathetic excuse for a rabble England put out. Quite the worst point in English cricket history for mine.Francis said:
And 1989 was a watershed - Australia (in Tests) were abysmal before that, and from 1989 to 1992 they were clearly the 2nd-best side in The World.
Australia have been dropping catches for a long time now - it started under Waugh's captaincy, in 2002\03. Just that it never mattered before The Ashes 2005.
Australia's squad may have looked good going into The Ashes 2005, but it soon became clear that Gillespie had been replaced by some imposter who took his shape, and that Kasprowicz had lost it big-time. Gilchrist and Martyn, too, were due some failures.
Ponting can take very little blame for the loss of the series IMO. He only made one big mistake captaincy-wise, and that was electing to field at Edgbaston.