South African cricket racism issue: Report implicates Smith, Boucher and de Villiers

[Son Of Coco]

These coaching qualifications have, IMO, become a typically current way of looking at things. I coached junior and senior football (AFL) and cricket and the results achieved and feedback received have all been positive. My qualifications ? QBE ... qualified by experience.
Having a piece of paper doesn't make one more qualified than those that have lived and breathed a game.

Makes it easier for HR to tick a box and not have to think though, which is their role.

 

[jayjay]

What planet are you on? AFL coaches come under immense criticism from media and fans whenever they have a bit of a losing streak. Besides, you miss my point. Much of the qualifications for these coaching levels (and I've been there) are theory based whereas there is no substitute for experience at the coalface. Your sarcasm is unbecoming from one so young.

It wasn't sarcasm, I was genuinely questioning these stories you make up

 

[TheJediBrah]

It wasn't sarcasm, I was genuinely questioning these stories you make up

I think you probably know this but he wasn't claiming to literally be an AFL coach lol, just a local coach of Aussie Rules football

 

[StephenZA]

Jesus still investigating why Tsolekile was not picked.

It's simple, the team would have been weakened with his selection and they were on absolute fire at the time.

What would Tsolekile have brought to the team? ABDV was keeping pretty well and the batting would have been weakened.

Absurd this is still a story.

On an absolute quality basis not enough. But he was at least as good as Boucher with the bat and ball at that stage. It was only Boucher's injury that changed the balance of the team such that Tsolekile was no longer the next in line.

And from a bigger picture perspective it did and has done a great deal of harm for SA cricket. When Kolisi was picked for the SA rugby team and when he was given captaincy on absolute terms there was better players and also better captains. However on broader point of view his selection was far better for SA rugby than much anything else done in the last ten years for rugby in SA. He was good enough and rose to the challenge. Sometimes the intangibles matter.

 

[social]

Tsolekile was no Gilchrist taking over from Healy

What’s more, he was banned for corruption

If that’s the guy that you are basing your case on then you have lost before you started

 

[Marius]

On an absolute quality basis not enough. But he was at least as good as Boucher with the bat and ball at that stage. It was only Boucher's injury that changed the balance of the team such that Tsolekile was no longer the next in line.

And from a bigger picture perspective it did and has done a great deal of harm for SA cricket. When Kolisi was picked for the SA rugby team and when he was given captaincy on absolute terms there was better players and also better captains. However on broader point of view his selection was far better for SA rugby than much anything else done in the last ten years for rugby in SA. He was good enough and rose to the challenge. Sometimes the intangibles matter.

I'm not sure about that, nobody could have argued that Kolisi wasn't there on merit and that his selection would have weakened the team. But there is a case to be made that Tsolekile being in the XI would have weakened the side. And I'm not sure why we're arguing about how good either is with the ball, when neither was a bowler (although Boucher has more FC wickets than Tsolekile).

Also, I don't think you can say with any certainty that Thami was better than Boucher with the bat. Boucher's Test average is the same as Tsolekile's Test average and Boucher had five Test hundreds while Tsolekile had a total six FC hundreds.

And as Social says above Tsolekile was banned for matchfixing, probably unlikely he would have been a Kolisi-type role model.

 

[StephenZA]

Tsolekile was no Gilchrist taking over from Healy

Where did I say anything like that? Don't create a straw man that is irrelevant to what we are talking about. Its disingenuous at best.

What’s more, he was banned for corruption

If that’s the guy that you are basing your case on then you have lost before you started

He was banned for corruption years later and once again is irrelevant to the point.

What my point very clearly here is, that if you want to only talk in absolute cricketing skill of who should be picked in an ideal word; then not only are you being myopic and blinkered. Additionally you are living in a fantasy land. And nowhere am I saying Tsolekile is or was the answer to this, but the continued treatment of player and coloured players in cricket has largely been very poor. While simultaneously being used as a scapegoat for many myriad of other issues and problems.

 

[social]

Where did I say anything like that? Don't create a straw man that is irrelevant to what we are talking about. Its disingenuous at best.

He was banned for corruption years later and once again is irrelevant to the point.

What my point very clearly here is, that if you want to only talk in absolute cricketing skill of who should be picked in an ideal word; then not only are you being myopic and blinkered. Additionally you are living in a fantasy land. And nowhere am I saying Tsolekile is or was the answer to this, but the continued treatment of player and coloured players in cricket has largely been very poor. While simultaneously being used as a scapegoat for many myriad of other issues and problems.

SA faces a massive amount of issues both in sport and general life

It’s totally absurd to me that people are worried about Boucher’s coaching qualifications or whether some random should have played more test cricket when it’s obvious that he wasn’t good enough anyway

 

[StephenZA]

I'm not sure about that, nobody could have argued that Kolisi wasn't there on merit and that his selection would have weakened the team. But there is a case to be made that Tsolekile being in the XI would have weakened the side. And I'm not sure why we're arguing about how good either is with the ball, when neither was a bowler (although Boucher has more FC wickets than Tsolekile).

Also, I don't think you can say with any certainty that Thami was better than Boucher with the bat. Boucher's Test average is the same as Tsolekile's Test average and Boucher had five Test hundreds while Tsolekile had a total six FC hundreds.

And as Social says above Tsolekile was banned for matchfixing, probably unlikely he would have been a Kolisi-type role model.

Yes hindsight perfect site... and where did I mention anything with the ball?

There was many comments (and justifiably on a pure skill and form at the time) when Kolisi was selected, not because he was terrible but because others where better. What we are talking about is at that stage Tsolekile was the best wk in the country (better than Boucher actually) and his batting had improved to the point that he was consistently contributing. For a like for like replacement with Boucher (at that stage) Tsolekile was a perfect fit. He lost his place in the line-up because de Villers could do the job and the team was stronger, not because he could not replace Boucher. So circumstances changed.

What everybody keeps saying in pure cricketing terms is that the team was better for it, and I`m not disagreeing. What I am clearly pointing out is that those sort of actions and the way some of the players of colour have been treated has also caused many long term issues and problems that is still prevailing in SA and has become an even bigger issue. None of these decisions are done in a vacuum of no other effects. And to just throw away what happened to Tsolekile as irrelevant is just stupid.

 

[Marius]

Yes hindsight perfect site... and where did I mention anything with the ball?

There was many comments (and justifiably on a pure skill and form at the time) when Kolisi was selected, not because he was terrible but because others where better. What we are talking about is at that stage Tsolekile was the best wk in the country (better than Boucher actually) and his batting had improved to the point that he was consistently contributing. For a like for like replacement with Boucher (at that stage) Tsolekile was a perfect fit. He lost his place in the line-up because de Villers could do the job and the team was stronger, not because he could not replace Boucher. So circumstances changed.

What everybody keeps saying in pure cricketing terms is that the team was better for it, and I`m not disagreeing. What I am clearly pointing out is that those sort of actions and the way some of the players of colour have been treated has also caused many long term issues and problems that is still prevailing in SA and has become an even bigger issue. None of these decisions are done in a vacuum of no other effects. And to just throw away what happened to Tsolekile as irrelevant is just stupid.

You literally mention 'bat and ball' in your post:



I think we can make similar arguments about white players getting poor treatment and argue it was because of their race, Jacques Rudolph being left out on account of his race. Kyle Abbott being left out on the eve of the 2015 semi-final despite being our best bowler in that tournament, etc.

I don't think Tsolekile was treated poorly on account of his race. He was perhaps treated poorly overall but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles, professional sport is not easy and nobody should expect handouts.

 

[StephenZA]

SA faces a massive amount of issues both in sport and general life

It’s totally absurd to me that people are worried about Boucher’s coaching qualifications or whether some random should have played more test cricket when it’s obvious that he wasn’t good enough anyway

And I agree with this... Boucher did not cause those issues, it was CSA management at the time and selection policy. And now those decisions of the past and the manner in which they where done is being used on Boucher/Smith as a beat stick. But you also can't talk about the Tsolekile incident without seeing the harm it did in the larger context; you can't be dismissive of those incidents because it continues to fuel the problems we have now, whether we like it or not.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You literally mention 'bat and ball' in your post:

View attachment 31597

I think we can make similar arguments about white players getting poor treatment and argue it was because of their race, Jacques Rudolph being left out on account of his race. Kyle Abbott being left out on the eve of the 2015 semi-final despite being our best bowler in that tournament, etc.

I don't think Tsolekile was treated poorly on account of his race. He was perhaps treated poorly overall but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles, professional sport is not easy and nobody should expect handouts.

In my time following cricket there have been plenty of South African players not selected when they should have been because of their race, and none of them have been black

 

[StephenZA]

You literally mention 'bat and ball' in your post:

View attachment 31597

I think we can make similar arguments about white players getting poor treatment and argue it was because of their race, Jacques Rudolph being left out on account of his race. Kyle Abbott being left out on the eve of the 2015 semi-final despite being our best bowler in that tournament, etc.

I don't think Tsolekile was treated poorly on account of his race. He was perhaps treated poorly overall but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles, professional sport is not easy and nobody should expect handouts.

That was not meant to be there... it was my eyes not reading what my head was saying. I meant bat and glove....

And I agree I don't think he was treated badly because of his race, I think it was a pure cricketing decision. But whether we like it or not race is part of the decision making process in SA, and we would be naïve to not be aware of the effect that being dismissive of players of colours is going to cause.

All I am saying is don't be dismissive about these very real issues, and the effects that they do and/or do not have.

 

[andruid]

Tsolekile was no Gilchrist taking over from Healy

What’s more, he was banned for corruption

If that’s the guy that you are basing your case on then you have lost before you started

I suspect the corruption came in after he decided screw it, I ain't getting picked anyway, so who cares.

 

[Marius]

That was not meant to be there... it was my eyes not reading what my head was saying. I meant bat and glove....

And I agree I don't think he was treated badly because of his race, I think it was a pure cricketing decision. But whether we like it or not race is part of the decision making process in SA, and we would be naïve to not be aware of the effect that being dismissive of players of colours is going to cause.

All I am saying is don't be dismissive about these very real issues, and the effects that they do and/or do not have.

So, what is the solution then? Should black players be treated differently from white players? Should black players not be expected to meet the same standard as white players?

 

[StephenZA]

So, what is the solution then? Should black players be treated differently from white players? Should black players not be expected to meet the same standard as white players?

Yes black players should be treated differently from white players, they should also be expected to meet the same standards. But probably need additional help getting there, particularly the batsmen. Realisation needs to be had that the majority of black players will come from a background that means they will not have had the same coaching. And that is particularly bad for batting. And yes this comes back to grass root level problems and the fact that we have most of our cricketers coming out of private/prestigious schools which creates huge bottle necks etc.

Cricket, club to CSA, in SA has been indifferent to many of the initial problems, because it started in a much better place than many sports in SA eg. rugby. Where black people absolutely hated the Springboks players of colour played cricket. SA cricket almost seemed to think that without trying, black players would come along. Now today we have huge numbers of black rugby players, while cricket it struggling to provide good enough quality black players and there is a myriad of reasons for that.

But this is getting off tangent because all I was trying to say here is don't be dismissive of the effects of what has happened to players like Tsolekile has had on SA cricket. It has nothing directly to do with Boucher or even Smith (and not their fault), but it does have a big effect on what is happening at CSA and cricket in SA. Both practically for the black kids and politically as stupid beat sticks.

 

[Marius]

Yes black players should be treated differently from white players, they should also be expected to meet the same standards. But probably need additional help getting there, particularly the batsmen. Realisation needs to be had that the majority of black players will come from a background that means they will not have had the same coaching. And that is particularly bad for batting. And yes this comes back to grass root level problems and the fact that we have most of our cricketers coming out of private/prestigious schools which creates huge bottle necks etc.

Cricket, club to CSA, in SA has been indifferent to many of the initial problems, because it started in a much better place than many sports in SA eg. rugby. Where black people absolutely hated the Springboks players of colour played cricket. SA cricket almost seemed to think that without trying, black players would come along. Now today we have huge numbers of black rugby players, while cricket it struggling to provide good enough quality black players and there is a myriad of reasons for that.

But this is getting off tangent because all I was trying to say here is don't be dismissive of the effects of what has happened to players like Tsolekile has had on SA cricket. It has nothing directly to do with Boucher or even Smith (and not their fault), but it does have a big effect on what is happening at CSA and cricket in SA. Both practically for the black kids and politically as stupid beat sticks.

The vast majority of players (white and black) will always come from private schools or top 'Model C' schools. How many people that have played Test cricket went to Brakpan High compared to KES or Rondebosch? And this isn't an SA-only phenomenon, private schools supply most Aus, NZ, Eng players etc. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar phenomenon in India - the proportion of Muslims or Dalits that have played for India is far lower than their proportion in the general population.

It's magical thinking to believe that we're going to have hundreds of top cricketers coming out of townships or rural areas if we can somehow just tweak something. What we should aim for is to have anyone who wants to play the game be able to do so.

And does someone like Kagiso Rabada, who is more privileged than 99% of all South Africans, really need to be handled differently because of his race?

 

[StephenZA]

The vast majority of players (white and black) will always come from private schools or top 'Model C' schools. How many people that have played Test cricket went to Brakpan High compared to KES or Rondebosch? And this isn't an SA-only phenomenon, private schools supply most Aus, NZ, Eng players etc. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar phenomenon in India - the proportion of Muslims or Dalits that have played for India is far lower than their proportion in the general population.

I have never pretended that some of these issues are totally unique to SA. However lets also not conflate the inequality in SA with the same sort of inequalities that lie in places like NZ, Aus or Eng. There is both a vast difference in inequality and a very immediate historical difference in SA when discussion these issues. And to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

It's magical thinking to believe that we're going to have hundreds of top cricketers coming out of townships or rural areas if we can somehow just tweak something. What we should aim for is to have anyone who wants to play the game be able to do so.

And its not about tweaking something it about the hard difficult fight to try improve the circumstances and give the best access to all those people that want to play cricket. It will take time and planning. And again lets not pretend that much harder work is needed in certain parts of SA than others because of those inequalities and absolute differences on the ground. But it is not some sort of impossible task.

And does someone like Kagiso Rabada, who is more privileged than 99% of all South Africans, really need to be handled differently because of his race?

There is many privileged black players, does not change the underlying issues that if we wanted to give access to cricket to the entire nation the majority come from under privileged conditions.

But also you think Rabada is not handled differently? In his case he must work harder than most because he is used as a consistent plaster to cover up the inadequacies of the system. He carries a great deal of weight on his shoulders from all sides. He dare not fail in anyway.

 

[social]

Rabada is an absolute gun being used as a political pawn IMO

He gets paid millions because he’s that good

Ridiculous that any SA captain of any colour criticises him for earning life changing money over playing against scrubs for his country

 

[Stefan9]

Obvious? It's not even necessarily true at all in this context

Would rather go for an experienced international cricketer with the right attributes than someone inferior who happens to have a meaningless qualification

Just cause the person hasn't played internationally doesn't make him inferior.
Or do you believe Rudolph straeuli was a better coach then Jake white & kitch christie? Diego Maradonna a better manager then Jose mourinho.
Justin Langer and Darren Lehman better coaches then John Buchannon.

The current odi and test champion coaches had 5 tests between them.

Chris Silverwood sure did show how much his international experience was worth compared to bayliss's zero.

Only SA coach to win a knockout game in an ICC tournament is Russel Domingo. Guess how many international games he played.