Sobers vs Viv vs Lara

[smash84]

Sobers' poor performance against NZ has a lot more context.

He toured there first as a teenager. He was picked as a bowler then, was a nothing batsman and was poor against everyone during this period, not just NZ.
He toured then again 14 seasons later when he already completed a tiring trip of Australia, having scored around 500 runs and bowled around 1200 deliveries. That is the most insane workload ever for any cricketer in history.

He scored a mountain of runs in England, so it wasn't as if he wasn't proven in swinging conditions.

Not saying that Viv doesn't have an argument for the best WI batsman. He was truly epic and the best batsman I have seen.

Thanks for the context, which might explain some of the bad performance against NZ, but he played 12 matches against them. Seems like a fairly large sample for quite mediocre performance

 

[smash84]

Viv's record seems a lot more rounded

Viv Richards batting bowling stats, averages and cricket statistics, 2024

Find out the complete career history of Viv Richards including highest scores, centuries, half centuries, wickets and more

www.espncricinfo.com

compared to Sobers

Garry Sobers batting bowling stats, averages and cricket statistics, 2024

Find out the complete career history of Garry Sobers including highest scores, centuries, half centuries, wickets and more

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[kyear2]

My slight comparative bias with Viv is that when I started watching cricket in the 80's he was past his absolute peak, in those early years my favorite batsman was actually Greenidge over him (for some reason). The best batsman I've ever watched in real time was without a doubt Lara, yes he was iffy at the beginning of innings and had stretches when he was off (or didn't care), but at his best, imho he was better than Sachin or Smith.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Devon Smith

Xavier Marshall

Btw, I don't know how he looks older than Lara now (he is just 35). Remembering watching his debut game.

 

[h_hurricane]

Thanks for the context, which might explain some of the bad performance against NZ, but he played 12 matches against them. Seems like a fairly large sample for quite mediocre performance

I think it is fair to hold against him his home performances against NZ in 5 tests. But then again, he averaged 36 in his only home series against them, which is definitely sub par but not terrible.

 

[honestbharani]

I think I would go Sobers > Lara > Viv but I can't not vote for The Prince. ? Best batsman I have seen easily.

 

[cricketsavant]

Sobers' poor performance against NZ has a lot more context.

He toured there first as a teenager. He was picked as a bowler then, was a nothing batsman and was poor against everyone during this period, not just NZ.
He toured then again 14 seasons later when he already completed a tiring trip of Australia, having scored around 500 runs and bowled around 1200 deliveries. That is the most insane workload ever for any cricketer in history.

He scored a mountain of runs in England, so it wasn't as if he wasn't proven in swinging conditions.

Not saying that Viv doesn't have an argument for the best WI batsman. He was truly epic and the best batsman I have seen.

Again missing the the point..."as a top order batsman".

I agree, Sobers is, imo, the greatest cricketer ever but he isn't the best batsman ever, by the finest of margins of course!

 

[smash84]

I think it is fair to hold against him his home performances against NZ in 5 tests. But then again, he averaged 36 in his only home series against them, which is definitely sub par but not terrible.

yeah, definitely sub-par for someone like Sobers, but not totally terrible as you say, but check the records of both sobers and viv that i posted above. Viv's seems a lot more well rounded doesn't it?

 

[kyear2]

Again missing the the point..."as a top order batsman".

I agree, Sobers is, imo, the greatest cricketer ever but he isn't the best batsman ever, by the finest of margins of course!

From memory his best average was at 3 and his average got lower the further down the order he went.

In terms of hundreds per innings and average I believe his best position was at 4, and the openers ahead of him wasn't as good as the ones IVA had. So not sure if your point.

And in the end all 3 of them are top 5 middle order batsmen behind Bradman.

 

[srbhkshk]

I agree, Sobers is, imo, the greatest cricketer ever but he isn't the best batsman ever, by the finest of margins of course!

By an absolutely massive margin actually.

 

[cricketsavant]

From memory his best average was at 3 and his average got lower the further down the order he went.

In terms of hundreds per innings and average I believe his best position was at 4, and the openers ahead of him wasn't as good as the ones IVA had. So not sure if your point.

And in the end all 3 of them are top 5 middle order batsmen behind Bradman.

You should go back to my post on Sobers numbers batting in the top order. The average is misleading and you may understand why.

 

[cricketsavant]

By an absolutely massive margin actually.

Purely batting, I'd rate Bradman (very different era but hard to argue an average of 99.94), Viv and Tendulkar as better but Sobers the batsman was only a step behind.

 

[h_hurricane]

yeah, definitely sub-par for someone like Sobers, but not totally terrible as you say, but check the records of both sobers and viv that i posted above. Viv's seems a lot more well rounded doesn't it?

Yep. Viv's is more rounded. The one reason I rate Sobers an iota higher is because, despite the mess created in his record during his teenage days, he averaged a lot higher while playing for 20 years. Do agree that there isn't anywhere near as much gap between them as their records suggest. In fact not much to choose between Sobers, Richards and Lara at all. And Headley probably would have edged them had he not been interrupted by WW2, but we never know.

 

[smash84]

Yep. Viv's is more rounded. The one reason I rate Sobers an iota higher is because, despite the mess created in his record during his teenage days, he averaged a lot higher while playing for 20 years. Do agree that there isn't anywhere near as much gap between them as their records suggest. In fact not much to choose between Sobers, Richards and Lara at all. And Headley probably would have edged them had he not been interrupted by WW2, but we never know.

Would that mathematically mean you rate him lower?

Yeah his career seems to move opposite to Viv's. While it got better with time, Viv's got worse.

 

[smash84]

But I went for Viv, just because fast bowling is the most difficult type of bowling to face and he was arguably the greatest player of fast bowling in the history of the game.

 

[h_hurricane]

Would that mathematically mean you rate him lower?

Yeah his career seems to move opposite to Viv's. While it got better with time, Viv's got worse.

I rate Sobers as a 60 averaging batsman, second best in history after 'we-all-know-who'. A couple of runs higher than his career average, which suffered a bit due to a very early debut.
More controversially, I rate Viv as a 57-58 averaging batsman. Though I can understand not many here buying that opinion

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Viv averaged 65ish in his peak 6 years.
Sobers averaged 65ish for a stretch of 16 years.. Thats almost the length of Viv's entire career.

 

[subshakerz]

Have to say I am surprised by the result. Thought it would be a dead heat between Sobers and Viv but Sobers is well ahead.

 

[kyear2]

I rate Sobers as a 60 averaging batsman, second best in history after 'we-all-know-who'. A couple of runs higher than his career average, which suffered a bit due to a very early debut.
More controversially, I rate Viv as a 57-58 averaging batsman. Though I can understand not many here buying that opinion

Might have been higher if he wasn't bowled into the ground for most of his career..

 

[Slifer]

Viv. Here's why. Unlike Lara, against every very good/great bowler of his time, Viv had at least one series where he put them to the sword: Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Dev, Willis, Thommo, Chandra and co etc. Then you look at his overall record, yeah his 50 or so average isn't particularly high but he did average 40+ home and away vs everyone (except 3 tests in NZ). He averaged 45 or so in the 4th innings. Those are clutch numbers imo. Lara never really conquered WWs or Donald. And Sobers, he did very good/great vs the two stronger teams of his time (Eng and Oz) but inexplicably sucked vs NZ. It's really a toss up between Viv and Gary but I've seen a lot more of Viv. Plus Viv like me, is from the Leeward Islands so I'll go with him.