Sobers vs Imran (secondary discipline)

[sayon basak]

Who's better on secondary discipline?

 

[Johan]

Sobers, compareable if not greater output, rate the quality of his wickets higher and straight up more versatile.

 

[capt_Luffy]

@sayon basak I was genuinely confused for a good 5 minutes why Coronis posted this thread

 

[Johan]

@sayon basak I was genuinely confused for a good 5 minutes why Coronis posted this thread

Context.

Peter May vs Denis Compton

Kind of dissapointing, considering he got some generous pitches in Australia as well, I'd expect him to win some games which would add a lot to his legacy. Tbf most of them were draw, both in Asia and Australia.

www.cricketweb.net

 

[shortpitched713]

They are both have a big variation throughout their careers in their secondary discipline. There were times Sobers had both a huge bowling output, and good returns, but also periods where he was more of a "relief bowler" with a more modest impact. Same with Imran's batting, which grew throughout his career, from handy lower order to specialist level.

If we look at value over replacement, I tend to rank Imran just slightly higher on secondary discipline. While I always have Sobers with a higher ranking on just primary discipline.

 

[subshakerz]

Very close but slight edge to Sobers as he carried an insane load.

 

[kyear2]

This has been done many times

 

[kyear2]

Sobers was more valuable to his team. He did everything from open the bowling to bowling endless overs of off spin onto the wind with negative fields. Sometimes in the same game.

From the time he stating bowling pace till near the end though, he was a test standard bowler at that discipline. To the point where some would select him for all time teams with him contributing as the 4th bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

Sobers was more valuable to his team. He did everything from open the bowling to bowling endless overs of off spin onto the wind with negative fields. Sometimes in the same game.

From the time he stating bowling pace till near the end though, he was a test standard bowler at that discipline. To the point where some would select him for all time teams with him contributing as the 4th bowler.

If we include captaincy, Imran was more valuable. But Sobers bowling load makes him a bit stronger in secondary discipline.

Strange though because you have stated explicitly in the past that Sobers wasn't test standard as a bowler. As usual, hard to rely on your opinions.

None of the two were fully test standard far less world class in their second disciplines.

 

[kyear2]

If we include captaincy, Imran was more valuable. But Sobers bowling load makes him a bit stronger in secondary discipline.

Strange though because you have stated explicitly in the past that Sobers wasn't test standard as a bowler. As usual, hard to rely on your opinions.

You inability to understand context is shocking.

I specifically said, from the time he started bowling pace, until he wore down near the end, and specifically at that disciple, he was test standard.

And how did captaincy come in?

But let's say we do, he wasn't a great strategist, from memory his record was no more special than Javed, who too was the better strategist, and was often deferred to by Imran for same. When Imran briefly "retired" the results didn't drop off.

And if you want to include captaincy, which Sobers gets a bad rap with for two "sporting decisions" and now gets underrated as a result, then we include Sobers's catching for which he rates significantly higher than does Imran for captaincy. And as far as on the field impact goes, was also more valuable.

And I will continue to say, I would take a great cordon any day with any attack, over a strong no. 8 with regards to value. So it's not even a given that I'm choosing Imran's batting over Sobers's catching.

For an all time, all star team, or just a strong team there's no contest.
For an average team though, it equals out a bit more, with both having the chance of being critical to victories or survival. The weaker the team though, the runs almost matter proportionally less. Hadlee was really good, he wasn't winning them matches with his bat. And neither are making this West indies team (for example) a contender. Not against good teams.

 

[sayon basak]

@sayon basak I was genuinely confused for a good 5 minutes why Coronis posted this thread

Hmm thanks.

(I posted this for Subz and Kyear2)

 

[Coronis]

Again, odd definition of test standard imo.

 

[subshakerz]

You inability to understand context is shocking.

I specifically said, from the time he started bowling pace, until he wore down near the end, and specifically at that disciple, he was test standard.

That's a weird definition if you don't think he is test standard overall.

And how did captaincy come in?

But let's say we do, he wasn't a great strategist, from memory his record was no more special than Javed, who too was the better strategist, and was often deferred to by Imran for same. When Imran briefly "retired" the results didn't drop off.

All of this is untrue. He didn't defer to Miandad, he occasionally referred to him and half his advice he chucked away since he wouldnt shut up. And Pakistan were destroyed by WI once Imran left as captain. You underrate his captaincy achievements and you ignore a consensus of his era of him being a great captain.

And if you want to include captaincy, which Sobers gets a bad rap with for two "sporting decisions" and now gets underrated as a result, then we include Sobers's catching for which he rates significantly higher than does Imran for captaincy. And as far as on the field impact goes, was also more valuable.

And I will continue to say, I would take a great cordon any day with any attack, over a strong no. 8 with regards to value. So it's not even a given that I'm choosing Imran's batting over Sobers's catching.

For an all time, all star team, or just a strong team there's no contest.
For an average team though, it equals out a bit more, with both having the chance of being critical to victories or survival. The weaker the team though, the runs almost matter proportionally less. Hadlee was really good, he wasn't winning them matches with his bat. And neither are making this West indies team (for example) a contender. Not against good teams.

Fielding is valuable but captaincy for normal teams has much more impact by your definition of 10 to 15 percent. And Sobers wasn't a too captain.

By the way you can't compare a great cordon (several fielders) with a single no.8 position. Stop that.