Sobers slams Australia and Shane Warne Performances

[Top_Cat]

I'm with Langeveldt here; Sobers is another former player who should stick to golf.

The WI were an excellent team, yes, but they were not the inhuman gods people think they were. And comparing players across eras is essentially useless because there are caveats associated with the comparison too large to ignore.

 

[Autobahn]

Actually something just occured to me - i think Warne's effectiveness is being exgaggerated here.
Warne's standard bowling style is 'pitch it outside the leg stump rough of the rightie and get it to break across' . He hasnt been very successful bowling an offstump line.
One of the prime reason Warne has struggled against IND batsmen so much is because IND batsmen are monster players off their pads/legs.
And the WI players of that era were absolutely monsters when it came to playing off their pads.
Viv would murder you with his inside-out cover drives or hoicking you to cow corner.
Greenidge was one of the strongest players off his pads i've seen.
Lloyd had the correct technique and did very well against the spin quartet in India i think.
Overall, unless Warne shows unnatural adaptation to off stump line, it would've been India vs Warne all over again, atleast at a lesser extent.

Add to that being able to read the ball very well from the hand and willingness to use their feet.

 

[social]

Actually something just occured to me - i think Warne's effectiveness is being exgaggerated here.
Warne's standard bowling style is 'pitch it outside the leg stump rough of the rightie and get it to break across' . He hasnt been very successful bowling an offstump line.
One of the prime reason Warne has struggled against IND batsmen so much is because IND batsmen are monster players off their pads/legs.
And the WI players of that era were absolutely monsters when it came to playing off their pads.
Viv would murder you with his inside-out cover drives or hoicking you to cow corner.
Greenidge was one of the strongest players off his pads i've seen.
Lloyd had the correct technique and did very well against the spin quartet in India i think.
Overall, unless Warne shows unnatural adaptation to off stump line, it would've been India vs Warne all over again, atleast at a lesser extent.

Every leg-spinner of any note that played against the WI during their peak years averaged more than 4 wickets per test and was largely responsible for his team inflicting at least one crushing defeat on the WI.

To say that the greatest leg-spinner of all time would have faired relatively worse and, indeed, have to change his bowling style is very, very far-fetched.

The WI had an underrated batting lineup, principally because so much emphasis was placed on the quality of their fast bowlers. However, at times, they looked like absolute novices against far lesser bowlers than Warne (and MacGill, for that matter).

 

[Slifer]

One defeat oh well u cant win them all. Australia lost a SERIES to a pace attack of much less ferocity than WI circa 1980. I still think that the series would be 2-1 either way in Aust but WI would win 3-0 or 2-0 in the WI.

 

[howardj]

I reckon Warne would have cut the Windies' much-vaunted batting line-up to ribbons. The idea that Australia wouldn't win a game is absurd.

 

[sirjeremy11]

I reckon Warne would have cut the Windies' much-vaunted batting line-up to ribbons. The idea that Australia wouldn't win a game is absurd.

Especially in Australia. They would have dried the pitches out a little to help quell those crazy Windian fast bowlers.

 

[Slifer]

I reckon Warne would have cut the Windies' much-vaunted batting line-up to ribbons. The idea that Australia wouldn't win a game is absurd.

I dont think Australia would be cut to ribbons (in Australia that is) but i cant see them winning a single game in WI under 1980s conditions.

 

[Slifer]

Especially in Australia. They would have dried the pitches out a little to help quell those crazy Windian fast bowlers.

Well i dont see how drying out Ozzie pitches differ from the pitches in India where WI bowlers also excelled. either way drying out the pitches will also serve to nullify the Aussie seamers.

 

[C_C]

Especially in Australia. They would have dried the pitches out a little to help quell those crazy Windian fast bowlers.

WI pacers were very effective in India in their days so drying the pitch up will not help OZ.
either which way, WI bowling owns OZ bowling and thats where the match will be decieded.

 

[Richard]

Actually something just occured to me - i think Warne's effectiveness is being exgaggerated here.
Warne's standard bowling style is 'pitch it outside the leg stump rough of the rightie and get it to break across' . He hasnt been very successful bowling an offstump line.

Or rather his standard style is start-off-drift-in-turn-away.
He doesn't generally start the ball on leg too often.

 

[SJS]

One can have a difference of opinion on some of the things that Sobers said but I think there is a bit of truth in what he is trying to say.

1. Australia, a great side no doubt, appear a far better team than they would be if the opposition had not been so woeful most of the time. One has to compare a team with those that exist in their time but they would fall short of the greatest teams of all times and I am one who agrees that the West Indians that Sobers talks off were stronger. They only suffered in comparison to this Aussie side in that they did not have a world class spinner.

2. The bowling standards world over have declined. Thers is absolutely no doubt about that. The batting standards have NOT become better. It is so strange to see batsmen floundering when the ball starts swinging or there is movement off the seam. One is amazed to hear top batsmen talk of a bowler's uncally ability to 'swing' the ball in the air. During the mid sixties to mid eighties when I played grade cricket, almost all the bowlers in grade sides swung the ball. It was a surprise if there was a left arm new ball bowler and he did not swing the ball in to the right handers and today people are impressed with Pathan for his ability to swing the ball in. It never ceases to amaze me. John Lever would have wreaked havok amongst todays batsmen and he wasnt very quick. Holding would have made them look ridiculous. Imran would have been unplayable.

3. I too think Gupte's career was a bit too short for him to be considerd the greatest leg spinner though he was clearly a great bowler. Many consider him India's best ever and thats a huge compliment even if we disagree.

I am one of those who does not think Warne is the greatest leg spinner of all time. Sorry folks but its my opinion.

The theory that batting has become too good and hence bowling looks mediocre isnt true. ask anyone who has seen cricket over the last thirty years and they will all agree that this is not the case. Cricketers overlap with careers of their seniors thus Gavaskar has played with Sobers, Kapil with Gavaskar, Tendulkar with Kapil and so on. When these people talk to each other they cover personal knowledge of a fairly long period. They may be from differnt generations - Sobers, Gavaskar, Kapil etc but without exception they agree that bowling standards have declined.

Its not as if its a question of everyone hankering for the past. Sobers is not saying that the West Indian bowling of the fifties and sixties when he played most of his cricket was better. No. These people are all of the opinion that the 70-80 period saw the best bowling in the last 40 years and I think that is true.

One has been lucky to watch international cricket for over 40 years and its my imression too. When one saw Imran Khan bowling one felt, how the hell are the batsmen going to ever be able to play this guy. I am afraid one doesnt get that feeling watching today's best.

 

[Slifer]

Great post!!

 

[aussie]

If there's no in-between I'd say so.
To compare him to Reiffel, Fleming and Gillespie is ridiculous.

fair enough..

 

[aussie]

I dont think Australia would be cut to ribbons (in Australia that is) but i cant see them winning a single game in WI under 1980s conditions.

i think this is fair point..

 

[Richard]

2. The bowling standards world over have declined. Thers is absolutely no doubt about that. The batting standards have NOT become better. It is so strange to see batsmen floundering when the ball starts swinging or there is movement off the seam. One is amazed to hear top batsmen talk of a bowler's uncally ability to 'swing' the ball in the air. During the mid sixties to mid eighties when I played grade cricket, almost all the bowlers in grade sides swung the ball. It was a surprise if there was a left arm new ball bowler and he did not swing the ball in to the right handers and today people are impressed with Pathan for his ability to swing the ball in. It never ceases to amaze me. John Lever would have wreaked havok amongst todays batsmen and he wasnt very quick. Holding would have made them look ridiculous. Imran would have been unplayable.

The theory that batting has become too good and hence bowling looks mediocre isnt true. ask anyone who has seen cricket over the last thirty years and they will all agree that this is not the case. Cricketers overlap with careers of their seniors thus Gavaskar has played with Sobers, Kapil with Gavaskar, Tendulkar with Kapil and so on. When these people talk to each other they cover personal knowledge of a fairly long period. They may be from differnt generations - Sobers, Gavaskar, Kapil etc but without exception they agree that bowling standards have declined.

I personally find the notion that batting standards have increased utterly laughable. Yes, indeed there are a couple of things in batsmens' favour at the current time compared to yesteryear - better bat technology, slightly shorter boundaries, and obviously generally flat pitches and balls which swing stupidly inadaquetely.
But the simple fact is, good bowlers are capable of getting around these things. Good bowlers can move the ball without it being in conventional-swing condition, and without a green seaming pitch. There are a few bowlers around fitting the bill (Vaas when in the right mood; McGrath by most reports; Simon Jones if he continues in last summer's vein - and if he ever gets fit again; Shoaib Akhtar when in the right mood), but nowhere near as many as there were 10 years ago and throughout most of the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.
It's no coincidence that the boom in big-and-fast-scoring (and it was a boom - you can pinpoint the moment within a couple of seasons - 2000\01 and 2001\02) coincided pretty exactly with the retirement\injury-reduced-effectiveness of so many great seamers.

One has been lucky to watch international cricket for over 40 years and its my imression too. When one saw Imran Khan bowling one felt, how the hell are the batsmen going to ever be able to play this guy. I am afraid one doesnt get that feeling watching today's best.

tec gets that feeling watching Simon Jones and, frankly, anyone with a sane mind would have last summer.
The question, of course, is whether he can bowl like he did last summer for longer periods.

 

[Top_Cat]

tec gets that feeling watching Simon Jones and, frankly, anyone with a sane mind would have last summer.
The question, of course, is whether he can bowl like he did last summer for longer periods.

I personally reckon Simon Jones has a fair bit of improvement left in him which is rather frightening for opposition teams. In fact, I think his next long-term spell in the England team now he's back from injury will see him in the top 5 bowlers worldwide.

 

[honestbharani]

Seems like everytime Warne comes up, there are a lotta exceptions, catch phrases and 'no cant consider this or that or that'.

By the way - he was thwacked by Lara and handled pretty well by Hooper. In the 70s/80s team, Kalli was Lara's equal when it came to playing spin, if not superior and Lloyd was easily better than any other WI player post 1990 barring Lara when it came to playing spin.

Ofcourse, if Warne started being too much of a problem, i am sure one of Holding,Garner,Croft,Marshall,Roberts, Ambrose, etc. can konk him outta the game.
I can see OZ sneaking in a narrow series victory in OZ if they avoided Perth and Brisbane....but winning in the WI ? i dont think so. Bridgetown, TT, Jamaica all are pacer friendly.
And as it has been amply demonstrated throughout the times, even a vastly superior batting side like India came up short agianst a vastly superior bowling side like South Africa throughout the 90s or early 2000s. Same with India-Pakistan.
It matters not the marginal superiority OZ enjoys in batting stakes.
WI bowling attack is vastly superior and it would be very much like IND taking on PAK or RSA in the heydeys of Akram,Waqar,Donald,Pollock,deVilliers, etc.
As Viv once said, their batting was carefree and unconcerned, because the WI's operating philosophy was 'doesnt matter how much we make. You will make less'.

You know, CC, if someone has been a better player of spin than Lara, I would have LOVED to see them bat. Lara is THAT good against spin.

 

[aussie]

I personally reckon Simon Jones has a fair bit of improvement left in him which is rather frightening for opposition teams. In fact, I think his next long-term spell in the England team now he's back from injury will see him in the top 5 bowlers worldwide.

i'd have him in my top 5 already, but what your saying here is very true..

 

[C_C]

You know, CC, if someone has been a better player of spin than Lara, I would have LOVED to see them bat. Lara is THAT good against spin.

I would say that Lara is one of the best ever players of spin but there are a few who spring to mind when it comes to their proficiency against spin.
IMO, Tendulkar is very much up there with Lara when it comes to playing spin. Azharuddin was superb and Sidhu IMO was just as good. I would include Kallicharan, Zaheer Abbass,Miandad, Lloyd, Kanhai,Sobers, Greg Chappell and Gavaskar in that group.

 

[honestbharani]

I would say that Lara is one of the best ever players of spin but there are a few who spring to mind when it comes to their proficiency against spin.
IMO, Tendulkar is very much up there with Lara when it comes to playing spin. Azharuddin was superb and Sidhu IMO was just as good. I would include Kallicharan, Zaheer Abbass,Miandad, Lloyd, Kanhai,Sobers, Greg Chappell and Gavaskar in that group.

Sidhu struggled against Vettori and Saqlain in the past. Azhar was very good, so was Sachin. But I still think they all are just one small rung below Lara. Lara just has so many shots and unlike Sachin, he generally uses his full repertoire while batting against them. Gavaskar once said that playing against spin also depended on one's attitude.