Shoaib or Hoggard ??

[V Reddy]

9 wickets in 3 matches in India is not bad. I was telling that he had a pretty good series. I think he was the 3rd highest wicket taker there. Not a bad performance. Hey you also say that had he played in asia he record would have been worse then listen had Shoiab played in AUS and SAF in tests he would have been averaging in the fifties which he already does in that places :P. Every bowler performs very well in the conditions known to him. Just look at the performances of Shoiab,Srinath,Kapil,etc,. in Asia and overseas.They perform well in the dustbowls and fare badly in greener wickets.:P

 

[marc71178]

Is there any other sport with such a diversity of conditions?

Home advantage certainly counts for something more than in any other I reckon.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Originally posted by cozmiccoyoete
Some guys can have wierd imagination, last night an American republican was asked as to what proof he had that Saddam and Osama had ties.The Republican replied, "well Saddam is a Sunni Moslem and so is Osama, and that's reason enough to reach such a conclusion" One would think that the guy was joking but he was dead serious, nothing can be done about guys like that.

Don't Even Think About Going Here in Cricket Chat. Off Topic

 

[onemangang]

Originally posted by vishnureddy
9 wickets in 3 matches in India is not bad. I was telling that he had a pretty good series. I think he was the 3rd highest wicket taker there. Not a bad performance. Hey you also say that had he played in asia he record would have been worse then listen had Shoiab played in AUS and SAF in tests he would have been averaging in the fifties which he already does in that places :P. Every bowler performs very well in the conditions known to him. Just look at the performances of Shoiab,Srinath,Kapil,etc,. in Asia and overseas.They perform well in the dustbowls and fare badly in greener wickets.:P

Every bowler perform well on home, yeah man do you know that Waseem Akram averages 56 against England at home while his ave against them in England is just 28!!

Kapil Dev has a wonderful record against AUSTRALIA IN AUSTRALIA.He averaged 24.58 in Aus, his economy rate was 2.39 and S/r 61. In contrast his overall average was 29.6, Economy rate was 2.78 and s/r 63.9!!! Also, his average against Aus in India was poorer than his average against them in Australia!!
Shoaib played just one series in Australia in which he didn't performed well, what makes you think his average would have remained the same? For a long time his best performance was in South Africa, the 5 wkt haul was his best untill some time because on his home land's dusty pitches he was getting hammered by opponents.

I'm not a big fan of Shoaib, nor am i a crictic of M Hoggard, but just to give you guys a clear picture i'm posting their stats for comparison.

Shoaib:

M:23 W:78 Ave:27.8 S/R :50 5 Wkts:5

Hoggard:

M:15 W:60 Ave:31.4 S/R:57.5 5 Wkts:2

 

[marc71178]

Shoaib:

M:23 W:78 Ave:27.8 S/R :50 5 Wkts:5

Hoggard:

M:15 W:60 Ave:31.4 S/R:57.5 5 Wkts:2

To me those stats say a lot. Hoggard takes more wickets per match on average, but at a higher strike rate and average.

He also has had a lot fewer 5 wicket hauls - suggesting he's a consistent bowler, and more stock than strike?

 

[onemangang]

[/quote]

To me those stats say a lot. Hoggard takes more wickets per match on average, but at a higher strike rate and average.

He also has had a lot fewer 5 wicket hauls - suggesting he's a consistent bowler, and more stock than strike? [/quote]

Yup, no dispute over that, but as i pointed earlier on, he does happen to play most of his cricket on bowlers friendly pitches!

 

[marc71178]

Great bowlers do it in any conditions - guess Shoaib isn't going to become an all-time great then!

 

[onemangang]

Originally posted by marc71178

- guess Shoaib isn't going to become an all-time great then! [/quote]

Akhter has a long way to go to be considered as a great bowler.

[/quote]
Great bowlers do it in any conditions[/quote]

Really?? thats news to me, Lillee is considered to be the best pacer ever.However Lille played just three matches in Pak and got just 3 wkts, Lillee refused to tour India and never played in India.So Marc, your claim that great bowlers perform everywhere is not correct, even the greatest leg spinner ever "Warne" has been a failure in India!

 

[Neil Pickup]

Erm... Marc said in any conditions not anywhere.

Warne has performed in the subcontinent conditions in Sharjah and Pakistan. Respond to the actual point made and not the one that you wanted him to make.

 

[marc71178]

Lillee best pace bowler ever, according to whom?

Warne has performed well in Asia as a whole - and conditions are pretty similar throughout that area.

 

[Gotchya]

Erm... Marc said in any conditions not anywhere.

Dont get your point. Anywhere means different conditions right ?

 

[onemangang]

Originally posted by Neil Pickup
Erm... Marc said in any conditions not anywhere.

Warne has performed in the subcontinent conditions in Sharjah and Pakistan. Respond to the actual point made and not the one that you wanted him to make.

The pitches of india and Pak are very different.Indian pitches favours spinners, take turn, while the pitches in Pak and Sharjah are just plain dead!!

 

[onemangang]

Originally posted by marc71178
Lillee best pace bowler ever, according to whom?

Warne has performed well in Asia as a whole - and conditions are pretty similar throughout that area.

Lillee is generally regarded as the best ever, if you have problem with that, you would still agree that he was certainly among the three top pacers the World has ever seen!

The pitches in India are very han thatdifferent t from Pak.In Pak they are just plain dead, while in India they favours the spinners.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Originally posted by Gotchya

Erm... Marc said in any conditions not anywhere.

Dont get your point. Anywhere means different conditions right ?

Not necessarily IMO. Any Conditions = Pitch Type/Weather, Anywhere = Geographical Location.

 

[yorker]

If by conditions you mean the pitches, then they are very different.In the '70's and '80's the pitches in Pak had some life, now they are totally dead.Indian pitches are very different and they do help their spinners a lot

 

[marc71178]

On the subject of best pace bowlers, how do you compare them - For me, there's the like of Barnes, Larwood et al from yesteryear - Who can say they weren't better than Lillee?

 

[onemangang]

Well i haven't seen them, nor have i ever seen cricketers like WG Grace or Sobers but i have heard that they were great.

Among all the pacers that i have seen, i think Lillee was the best, but thats not just a personal opinion.Many cricketrs , including Holding/Roberts/McGrath considers Lillee as the best.
Whether he was the best or not, the fact that he was a great pacer, and a complete fast bowler cannot be disregarded.But he never played Test cricket in India and fared very poorly in PK!

 

[marc71178]

*** Upped for people to review for the Over-rated thread ***

 

[Bazza]

Well as it's been dragged out I would just like to say that the best three bowlers I have seen are Walsh, McGrath and Ambrose, probably in that order. So when you consider the only time I really got a good look at Courtney and Curtly was in 2000 when they were in their last thirties and on the brink of retirement that is a great compliment.

The best sight as an Englishman is Darren Gough in full flow, and the best I can maybe remember him bowling was in 1998 against South Africa - pace and swing and they really couldn't cope at times. Irresistable. Caddick on his day is pretty enjoyable also. That 2000 series against West Indies when he took four wickets in an over is possibly my greatest cricketing memory. Thoroughly enjoyable.