Shakib Al Hasan vs Ian Botham / Burgey vs *****

[Red]

Well then I agree. He hasn't done a lot with the bat against India and South Africa.

But he has done more than enough overall against mid-tier nations like Australia, England, New Zealand, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

But in Botham's day, there was pretty much only WI for the majority of it, and he didn't do well against them neither.

Forgetting Botham for a moment, how do you figure Shakib has "done more than enough" with the bat against Aust and Eng?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Forgetting Botham for a moment, how do you figure Shakib has "done more than enough" with the bat against Aust and Eng?

1st Test, Australia tour of Bangladesh at Dhaka, Aug 27-30 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

The above test is exactly 1/2 of Shakib's career vs Australia. You will see that he is the second highest individual innings for the match, and the highest for his team. He walks out to bat at 3/10 and scores 84, setting up a famous win where he takes 10 wickets and earns MOTM. Done enough.



Many would think this is Shakib's finest hour v England:

2nd Test, England tour of Bangladesh at Dhaka, Mar 20-24 2010 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

Where he scores 49 and 96 in the second while again taking the most wickets for his team. But its not in my opinion because in the series below, despite a paltry 26.75 - he averages more runs than Joe Root, Alistair Cook, and Gary Ballance also assisting in a famous victory for the Banga's over England. These 2 matches plus the one identified above are half his career vs England.

Cricket Records | Records | England in Bangladesh Test Series, 2016/17 | | Most runs | ESPNcricinfo

2nd Test, England tour of Bangladesh at Dhaka, Oct 28-30 2016 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

In the winning test - Shakib takes 5 wickets and 51 runs for the match. Hardly the stuff for a motm this time - but again, a vital contribution. (He does better with 55 runs and 7 wickets in the lost test sadly).

So I guess what I'm saying is, when Shakib bats at 28.75 vs Australia and bowls at 22.5, he's doing enough with the bat versus Australia.

When he bats at 26.75 vs England in a series, and bowls at 18.41, he's doing enough with the bat versus England.

Cricket Records | Records | England in Bangladesh Test Series, 2016/17 | | Most wickets | ESPNcricinfo

 

[Burgey]

If we use this metric you're applying to Shakib, Michael Bevan did enough on the back of a couple of performances against WI and Pakistan back in his day.

Al Hasan is Bangladesh's best ever player and a fine cricketer. He's mythologized more than most current players though, because so many of his team mates are and have been utter crap. Makes him stand out like dogs balls. He's basically Bangladesh's Dave Houghton, only he's had more opportunities at test level.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

If we use this metric you're applying to Shakib, Michael Bevan did enough on the back of a couple of performances against WI and Pakistan back in his day.

Well as Bevan played most his career as an allrounder, and was ultimately dropped for Stuart McGill, you may well be right.

Al Hasan is Bangladesh's best ever player and a fine cricketer. He's mythologized more than most current players though, because so many of his team mates are and have been utter crap. Makes him stand out like dogs balls. He's basically Bangladesh's Dave Houghton, only he's had more opportunities at test level.

You wouldn't be an Australian by chance? Serious question.

The only mythology to his batting average over 40 is as though the huge runs he made vs NZ and Pakistan don't count for much. Yet Shakib is the only dbl centurion I know of against this trio:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_...-new-zealand-pace-attack-southee-wagner-boult

There maybe more. But none that I can think of immediately. Especially in NZ.

And I'm sure Yasir Shah or Ajmal for that matter have taken down "bigger fish" in Asia more cheaply than they managed to get Shakib.

But it does seem to be that Shakib's most fiercest critics are Australian. Which is odd, because seeing he rissoled Australia with bat and ball in his very first attempt, I would have thought Australians would have more respect for him.

Was it a fluke? Doubtful, he had done it recently before hand to Sri Lanka as well (not long after they had thrashed Aus 3-0), and most neutrals if asked who they thought had a good game for Bangladesh upon hearing they won, 9/10 would answer Shakib. Yes, he is in a weaker team, that means he has to bat more often in dire situations of 10/3 instead of 150/3 or 250/3 and smack a breezy easy innings against an older ball and tired fielders with bowlers under fatigue.

Anyway I am done on this thread. Shakib is world class. I disagree with everyone who feels otherwise, which you're free to do.

 

[cnerd123]

Mr Miyagi fighting the good fight

People denying Shakib as world class are just wrong. It's been well established here that he doesn't get the respect he deserves on account of simply not playing enough Tests in order to put together a dominant streak over each nation. Highlighting his top performances against everyone is never given full credit. Neither is doing well against any non-Big 3 nation. It was only recently did people start to come around and admit that runs scored in Bangladesh actually mean something, and aren't to be excluded from a player's record.

This analysis by stats is always a bit of a dead end argument, because ultimately to convince the doubters you end up pulling out isolated performances against strong team in tough situations, to which they inevitably go "Well yea, so what, it's just one test". There's really no winning over the haterz

Although seriously he isn't up there with prime Botham. Head and shoulders over end-career Botham tho.

 

[Burgey]

Or he doesn't play enough tests to get truly found out.

 

[Athlai]

Truly found out to be really ****ing good, yeah.

 

[Burgey]

Well as Bevan played most his career as an allrounder, and was ultimately dropped for Stuart McGill, you may well be right.



You wouldn't be an Australian by chance? Serious question.

The only mythology to his batting average over 40 is as though the huge runs he made vs NZ and Pakistan don't count for much. Yet Shakib is the only dbl centurion I know of against this trio:

Will New Zealand's three-pronged fork skewer England? - ESPNcricinfo

There maybe more. But none that I can think of immediately. Especially in NZ.

And I'm sure Yasir Shah or Ajmal for that matter have taken down "bigger fish" in Asia more cheaply than they managed to get Shakib.

But it does seem to be that Shakib's most fiercest critics are Australian. Which is odd, because seeing he rissoled Australia with bat and ball in his very first attempt, I would have thought Australians would have more respect for him.

Was it a fluke? Doubtful, he had done it recently before hand to Sri Lanka as well (not long after they had thrashed Aus 3-0), and most neutrals if asked who they thought had a good game for Bangladesh upon hearing they won, 9/10 would answer Shakib. Yes, he is in a weaker team, that means he has to bat more often in dire situations of 10/3 instead of 150/3 or 250/3 and smack a breezy easy innings against an older ball and tired fielders with bowlers under fatigue.

Anyway I am done on this thread. Shakib is world class. I disagree with everyone who feels otherwise, which you're free to do.

Serious question for you. Is it actually possible for you to enter into a discussion about cricket or cricketers without resorting to "Are you Australian?" when someone disagrees with you? Fmd it's as tiresome as it is lazy. It's just junk posting.

 

[cnerd123]

Serious question for you. Is it actually possible for you to enter into a discussion about cricket or cricketers without resorting to "Are you Australian?" when someone disagrees with you? Fmd it's as tiresome as it is lazy. It's just junk posting.

Mr Miyagi must be Australian

 

[Burgey]

One could never ask the same question of you mate, because you support eight different teams.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

The fact that this thread reached 2 pages is evidence that these are two super men of players/cricketers/human-beings.

Shakib once knocked India out of a World Cup as a teenager. What has Botham done that is equally legendary?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Serious question for you. Is it actually possible for you to enter into a discussion about cricket or cricketers without resorting to "Are you Australian?" when someone disagrees with you? Fmd it's as tiresome as it is lazy. It's just junk posting.

I just did a word search on "Australian" my entire post history since joining, and I am pretty sure that you're the first person I have asked whether they are Australian.

Have you possibly been asked this question by more users besides myself?

 

[Burgey]

Won an Ashes series by himself I suppose.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Won an Ashes series by himself I suppose.

Is this the Botham test where Willis takes an 8/fer in the 2nd innings?

I mean sure, great match for Beefy, but by himself?

 

[cnerd123]

Is this the Botham test where Willis takes an 8/fer in the 2nd innings?

It's also the test where Lillee and Marsh bet on themselves to lose 500/1

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2001/aug/13/cricket.comment

Lillee confesses to having made 5,000 pounds off the bet, and how much the other players chipped in and how much they earned no one else admits. What's telling is that when this was revealed they all first tried to deny it, and then came back and confessed later, all while trying to say they 'never had any intention of losing the game'

Well then why bet against yourself? And then deny it after? 5,000 pounds was not an insubstantial amount of money back in that day, especially given what the players earned.

Botham's greatest moment and the Aussies were profiting off it. All under the watch of Allan Border too.

Pretty disgusting tbh.

 

[Burgey]

He took 5/1 to win the next test and made a ton in the last test too iirc. The bloke caught fire after Lord's.

 

[cnerd123]

He took 5/1 to win the next test and made a ton in the last test too iirc. The bloke caught fire after Lord's.

I wonder what odds the Aussies got on that...

 

[cpr]

Or the fact that it is close causes discomfort seeing Shakib is in a weaker team.

Take it you never watched England after 1985?

 

[Burgey]

I wonder what odds the Aussies got on that...

Hopefully something decent. As usual, Australia leading the way in cricketing innovation. Decades ahead of their subcontinental rivals

 

[Burgey]

It's also the test where Lillee and Marsh bet on themselves to lose 500/1

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2001/aug/13/cricket.comment

Lillee confesses to having made 5,000 pounds off the bet, and how much the other players chipped in and how much they earned no one else admits. What's telling is that when this was revealed they all first tried to deny it, and then came back and confessed later, all while trying to say they 'never had any intention of losing the game'

While then why bet against yourself? And then deny it after? 5,000 pounds was not an insubstantial amount of money back in that day, especially given what the players earned.

Botham's greatest moment and the Aussies were profiting off it. All under the watch of Kim Hughes too.

Pretty disgusting tbh.

ftfy