SehwagVsGilchrist

[Ikki]

Ben, I like your hustle, that's why I'd advise you to let it go, take the word on board and change your tone. If you've got a question, ask in private.

 

[honestbharani]

charity runs Lehmann was bowling to try and get the 25 overs in, game was well over!

I remember Viru smashing Brad Hogg more than Lehmann though...

 

[honestbharani]

Neither of them have failed in Sri Lanka as opposed to since 2000 in South Africa, Sehwag has failed miserably, averaging 9.80 from 5 innings, opening the batting whilst Hayden has averaged 49.09 from 11 innings. Hayden also averaged 47 against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka.

If you wanted to go as far as comparing how both batsman go on pitches that they aren't used to then you'd compare how Hayden goes in the subcontient and how Sehwag goes outside the subcontient. If you deduct the minnows (Bangladesh only) then here are the statistics...

Matthew Hayden: 17 matches, 32 innings, 2 not out, 1556 runs @ 51.86, 4 hundreds
Virender Sehwag: 22 matches, 38 innings, 1 not out, 1593 runs @ 43.05, 4 hundreds

Ponting, India, miserable failure... not good enough to lick the other great batsmen's shoes then???????

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Ponting, India, miserable failure... not good enough to lick the other great batsmen's shoes then???????

Ponting averaged 46 on his last tour of India.

 

[Precambrian]

ponting averaged 46 on his last tour of india.

38.

 

[honestbharani]

Are you trying to say Ponting's record is an aberration or Sehwag's here?

The difference between the two is one only occurs in one country against one opponent. The other occurs in several countries against several opponents.

Also, let's not pretend it is only 18 innings - it's almost 40. It's not like Harris or Giles came to India to trouble Sehwag on turning 3rd/4th inning pitches. And Warne certainly wasn't successful, for whatever reason. And what about the WIndies? Do they have a Mendis we didn't hear about? Did Vettori clean up in India? Yeah...exactly.

Certainly at home these spinning pitches weren't troubling as they are also reknown as the best in their own conditions, especially. It's only in Sri Lanka and to a lesser extent Pakistan does this start being true.

The fact that the other occurs in SEVERAL countries against SEVERAL opponents shows it is even lesser of a sample space than what it is for Ponting V India... How in God's name is it enough to draw conclusions from that when you are arguing Ponting's record V India (a straight forward sample space of 18 or so innings over 10 year period) is an aberration?

 

[honestbharani]

Yes and I am sure a bowler who takes 80% of wickets from the tail is as good as a bowler who takes 80% from the upper order. The wickets have the same value right? One later, the others earlier. Hmm.



As I said, I'll judge Sehwag once he retires. You're forgetting that I actually rate Sehwag and was arguing for him when everyone said Merchant tramples on him. I said he needs to do more and if he does I have no qualms about him being the best opener of his era.



S.Africa has been consistently a top rated side since the 90s until now. You're dreaming if you think India have. With these players, it took you guys until 2003 to even win an away test series against a decent side (Pakistan).

jeez man.. that first para is the stupidest thing u have posted here in a long time.. Runs in second innings = wickets of top order batters? So runs in first innings are wickets of tailenders? Seriously?? The runs scored off good bowlers is comparable to wickets taken of the top 6 or 7.. while runs off part timers can be perhaps be considered same as geting lower order wickets... Care to show that Sehwag DOES NOT score off the good bowlers?????



By your argument, wickets taken in second innings in subcontinent mean nothing and wickets taken in first innings in seamy pitches like England also mean nothing... This is, quite frankly, the stupidest argument I have seen here...

 

[honestbharani]

50 degree heat, batmen dropping like flies and averaging about 86...I think it makes a case.

it is NEVER that worse in Pakistan.. And most of the times the trouble u face there is reverse swing which was hardly evident in the said series... And teh cool conditions in the morning when the ball swings around crazy for two hours and then settles down amazingly easy to play on... no sir, you show that you have simply not watched enough cricket in Pakistan..

 

[Precambrian]

it is NEVER that worse in Pakistan.. And most of the times the trouble u face there is reverse swing which was hardly evident in the said series... And teh cool conditions in the morning when the ball swings around crazy for two hours and then settles down amazingly easy to play on... no sir, you show that you have simply not watched enough cricket in Pakistan..

He might be referring to Sharjah matches, but I am completely at his argument that batsmen find it harder in such conditions than bowlers.

 

[honestbharani]

It is relevant, because neither Hayden nor Sehwag bat alone. Just as Sehwag will find it easier, so too will the batsmen in both teams - even if it isn't to the same extent - but only a select few will continue scoring runs when the pitch is much harder to bat on.

The keyword there is continue...


This whole argument would have a lot of merit if the difference between a Hayden and Sehwag in the first innings average was negligible.. It is NOT..


And the whole point of teams saying " we want to bat onlyonce" " we want to bat once and bat big" etc. indicates that a team always looks at scoring more runs up at the top... And Sehwag performs this JOB terrifically well... better than Hayden and better than a number of others... He IS not doing well in second innigns but not all second innings tracks are difficult to bat on.. Adelaide last year and a few knocks before that, I can easily recall, were all on pretty flat batting conditions... There is no given that a guy who has more average in 3/4th innings is necessarily a better batsman.. Esp. because the overall averages are the same here... And in any case, there are a number of 4th innings of Hayden when he had easy chases or he was batting with a HUGE lead behind him.. Hardly the same for Sehwag, who for the most part, was playing catch up in his away 4th innings..


Another instance of how good the team is affecting how good the player performs..


For all the stuff said about that wfdu_ben character, I do think what he said with respect to Gayle, Sehwag and Gilchrist deserves consideration... Given their styles of play, it is not completely unimaginable that a Gayle would have been more successful playing for Australia or India or that a Sehwag or Gilchrist would have been less successful playing for the Windies.. In fact, I think we can include Hayden in that group as well...

 

[honestbharani]

Ponting averaged 46 on his last tour of India.

and averaged a mighty single figure score before that...

 

[Precambrian]

and averaged a mighty single figure score before that...

He never averaged 46 in test matches in india. Not even one series. The max was last time, 38.

 

[honestbharani]

He might be referring to Sharjah matches, but I am completely at his argument that batsmen find it harder in such conditions than bowlers.

yeah I got that... tat is why I think he has not watched much cricket in Pakistan at all... The conditions he refers to (of Sharjah) almost never happen in Pakistan to those extreme degrees..


And of course for all the discomfort faced by batsmen in those conditions is offset by the very same difficulties plaguing the bowlers.. Anyone who has played in the chennai heat in May would know that...

 

[wfdu_ben91]

For all the stuff said about that wfdu_ben character, I do think what he said with respect to Gayle, Sehwag and Gilchrist deserves consideration... Given their styles of play, it is not completely unimaginable that a Gayle would have been more successful playing for Australia or India or that a Sehwag or Gilchrist would have been less successful playing for the Windies.. In fact, I think we can include Hayden in that group as well...

Hayden is nothing like Gilchrist/Sehwag/Gayle. His a class above that and a comparison with Dravid, Kallis, Pietersen, etc would be more suitable.

Opening batsman don't benefit from playing in a stronger team. Sehwag doesn't even benefit from playing in a stronger team, just on a flat subcontient pitches that offer nothing for seam bowlers.

 

[honestbharani]

Hayden is nothing like Gilchrist/Sehwag/Gayle. His a class above that and a comparison with Dravid, Kallis, Pietersen, etc would be more suitable.

Opening batsman don't benefit from playing in a stronger team. Sehwag doesn't even benefit from playing in a stronger team, just on a flat subcontient pitches that offer nothing for seam bowlers.

u mean the same pitches where Ponting could not buy a run????

 

[pasag]

38.

He never averaged 46 in test matches in india. Not even one series. The max was last time, 38.

Key word being 'tour'.

 

[Athlai]

Hayden is nothing like Gilchrist/Sehwag/Gayle. His a class above that and a comparison with Dravid, Kallis, Pietersen, etc would be more suitable.

Opening batsman don't benefit from playing in a stronger team. Sehwag doesn't even benefit from playing in a stronger team, just on a flat subcontient pitches that offer nothing for seam bowlers.

Uhh did you just call Dravid/Kallis/Pietersen better than Gilly/Sehwag/Gayle.

 

[Precambrian]

Hayden is nothing like Gilchrist/Sehwag/Gayle. His a class above that and a comparison with Dravid, Kallis, Pietersen, etc would be more suitable.

Disagree. Sehwag > Hayden. It is a mighty joke to compare Hayden to Kallis and Dravid. Although the Pietersen comparison has its merits.

Opening batsman don't benefit from playing in a stronger team. Sehwag doesn't even benefit from playing in a stronger team, just on a flat subcontient pitches that offer nothing for seam bowlers.

What are you arriving at son? Both Hayden and Sehwag are openers, and hence their success is not related to the success of their teammates, going by what I understand your post. what is the point then?

No wonder then, Hayden's best performances have come on subcontinental Indian tracks. He is the ultimate flat track bully. Sehwag has played some corkers on difficult pitches like the Melbourne 2003 track, Colombo 2008 (He made 201 and India were allout for 300something), Chennai 2008 (80 odd of 60 balls in a tough chase against England in the 4th innings) etc.

 

[Precambrian]

Key word being 'tour'.

Why should it matter? You tour to play test matches, not to inflate your FC averages.

 

[pasag]

Why should it matter? You tour to play test matches, not to inflate your FC averages.

I couldn't care less, tbh, merely pointing out Ben was right and your correction wasn't.