S Africa calls for its players to stay

[Tom Flint]

No real issues with the likes of vilas de lange ect leaving on kolpaks as they realistically could only hope to play 2/3 intl games a year due to better players in front of them.
Roussoux and abbott on the other hand would easily have played 15+ games across all 3 formats. They sacrificed playing for their country to earn more money.

 

[SeamUp]

Very good keeper and much better batsman than he showed at test level. Rossouw is still playing domestically so maybe Vilas will continue to play for the Cobras. Read an interview with Ashwell Prince recently, the new coach of the Cobras and who also played as a Kolpak for Lancashire, and he was hopeful that these guys could still comeback and play, and that South African cricket still needs these guys around.

Read that interview as well. Very good from Ash.

But the fact is that CSA are going to probably make it one kolpak per game or only one kolpak can get a contract and play.

So we currently stand like this :

Cobras : Levi, van Zyl, Vilas
Warriors : Ingram , Harmer, Abbott
Dolphins :
Knights : Rossouw (maybe de Lange)
Lions : Viljoen
Titans : Wiese

 

[wellAlbidarned]

the goal of quotas is a long game - it is going to suck in the short term. and probably the medium term tbh. Where it will have the impact IMO is in the next couple of generations of black players. Think about how many left-armers Pakistan has at the moment, why the **** do you think that is? It's because they all grew up watching Akram do his thing. Why does India have a zillion young compact right handed batsmen? Duhr. Cricket is largely seen as an elite white sport. It doesn't matter how much support you put in at grassroots if the national side consists of 9-10 white dudes because that's going to shape how kids see their place in cricket.

Kids growing up over the next couple of decades in SA are going to see a team of whites and blacks playing together and it's going to drastically change perceptions of cricket at all levels. Young black kids are going to view cricket as a game they can participate and succeed in. SA cricket is going to be better for it if they can hold their nerve IMO.

 

[Adders]

the goal of quotas is a long game - it is going to suck in the short term. and probably the medium term tbh. Where it will have the impact IMO is in the next couple of generations of black players. Think about how many left-armers Pakistan has at the moment, why the **** do you think that is? It's because they all grew up watching Akram do his thing. Why does India have a zillion young compact right handed batsmen? Duhr. Cricket is largely seen as an elite white sport. It doesn't matter how much support you put in at grassroots if the national side consists of 9-10 white dudes because that's going to shape how kids see their place in cricket.

Kids growing up over the next couple of decades in SA are going to see a team of whites and blacks playing together and it's going to drastically change perceptions of cricket at all levels. Young black kids are going to view cricket as a game they can participate and succeed in. SA cricket is going to be better for it if they can hold their nerve IMO.

Terrific post.

I've heard it be said that this current generation of young white South Africans are going to be the ones that need to sacrifice in so many ways in order to secure a better future for all in SA. It's tough on them as they are not responsible for the wrongs of the past.

 

[Malleeboy]

So you fail to pick your best team, so your national team doesn't win as often. With the poor results the sports profile drops.
The team knows their not the best players, so you impact their self belief, their not the best side in the nation and they know it.
All in the hope you might inspire some kids of the same ethnicity to play the sport.

 

[morgieb]

The worry with the quotas:

1. They've (and multi-racial South African teams) has been prevalent for quite a while. Maybe there's a hugely talented next generation of South African blacks coming through in the next 10 years, but it isn't like they're starting from a base of 9/10 whites. Indeed a non-quota side would look almost identical to the current one.
2. How much is enough for black Africa? Is it proper equity, or more Zimbabwe-like retribution? That's the worry for South Africa, going the Zimbabwe route.

If it does work (like a side which meets the quotas adequately without requiring significant compromise or being a very weak side) then obviously it's a very good thing. I'm just worried that it won't work.

 

[91Jmay]

The worry with the quotas:

1. They've (and multi-racial South African teams) has been prevalent for quite a while. Maybe there's a hugely talented next generation of South African blacks coming through in the next 10 years, but it isn't like they're starting from a base of 9/10 whites. Indeed a non-quota side would look almost identical to the current one.
2. How much is enough for black Africa? Is it proper equity, or more Zimbabwe-like retribution? That's the worry for South Africa, going the Zimbabwe route.

If it does work (like a side which meets the quotas adequately without requiring significant compromise or being a very weak side) then obviously it's a very good thing. I'm just worried that it won't work.

Proper equity would be having 8 or 9 black Africans in the team though, going by the demographics

 

[TheJediBrah]

Terrific post.

I've heard it be said that this current generation of young white South Africans are going to be the ones that need to sacrifice in so many ways in order to secure a better future for all in SA. It's tough on them as they are not responsible for the wrongs of the past.

But you see the issue with that don't you? No one knows if it's going to work that way at all, and people who are skeptical have every reason to be.

Even if you could guarantee that it would achieve exactly what they hope it will it would still be contentious and be undebatably unfair & discriminatory. But you can't even guarantee that. In fact if I were a betting man I'd put a lot of money on guessing it will achieve nothing but create conflict.

 

[Adders]

But you see the issue with that don't you? No one knows if it's going to work that way at all, and people who are skeptical have every reason to be.

Even if you could guarantee that it would achieve exactly what they hope it will it would still be contentious and be undebatably unfair & discriminatory. But you can't even guarantee that. In fact if I were a betting man I'd put a lot of money on guessing it will achieve nothing but create conflict.

You are right that no one knows if quotas will achieve their desired results in time, but if you read Albi's post that I quoted he's made probably the best case I've seen on here for why they can.......but as he says it's a long game and the results won't be seen by this generation or possibly even the next.

To clarify my position on this I am not even pro quotas as I don't know for sure if they will work and I don't know if there are better ways. But I am certainly not against them because something needs to be done and that is why I have argued so strongly against people on here that categorically say they are wrong.

I've gone to wikipedia for these figures so am not sure of their accuracy, but black African's make up 80% of SA's population compared to around 8% white..........I can see the importance of having their national sporting teams getting a lot closer to this demographical split than they are now. And as I've said many times, in the short term these sporting teams may suffer with results if quotas mean it's not always the best players getting on the park.........but who gives a ****?? That really is a small price to pay compared to the vast majority of the 80% black population living in slums and poverty.

And let's not be coy.......they are there because a minority of 8% put them there and held them there for the best part of 50 years. The current inequality is just not going to resolve itself naturally, it will require sacrifice by those that have for the benefit of those that don't.

It's only sport FFS.......there is a lot more at stake here.

 

[Flem274*]

ades in SA are going to see a team of whites and blacks playing together.

they do now

 

[wellAlbidarned]

they do now

that's the point, so the kids who are 10 now are growing up seeing cricket in that way.

 

[Gnske]

.
I've gone to wikipedia for these figures so am not sure of their accuracy,

The current inequality is just not going to resolve itself naturally, it will require sacrifice by those that have for the benefit of those that don't.

T. The man who just went to wikipedia.

How easily such things are said when you don't have to be shot in the foot for the sake of the greater false narrative.

 

[Adders]

Too highbrow for me Gnske........got no ****ing idea what you are saying there.

Are those demographic percentages I quoted incorrect?

 

[TheJediBrah]

You are right that no one knows if quotas will achieve their desired results in time, but if you read Albi's post that I quoted he's made probably the best case I've seen on here for why they can.......but as he says it's a long game and the results won't be seen by this generation or possibly even the next.

To clarify my position on this I am not even pro quotas as I don't know for sure if they will work and I don't know if there are better ways. But I am certainly not against them because something needs to be done and that is why I have argued so strongly against people on here that categorically say they are wrong.

I've gone to wikipedia for these figures so am not sure of their accuracy, but black African's make up 80% of SA's population compared to around 8% white..........I can see the importance of having their national sporting teams getting a lot closer to this demographical split than they are now. And as I've said many times, in the short term these sporting teams may suffer with results if quotas mean it's not always the best players getting on the park.........but who gives a ****?? That really is a small price to pay compared to the vast majority of the 80% black population living in slums and poverty.

And let's not be coy.......they are there because a minority of 8% put them there and held them there for the best part of 50 years. The current inequality is just not going to resolve itself naturally, it will require sacrifice by those that have for the benefit of those that don't.

It's only sport FFS.......there is a lot more at stake here.

All well and good, doesn't really change anything I said though.

 

[indiaholic]

I still don't see why the solution is to have quotas rather than invest in cricket at the grass roots level. Make sure that talented kids get scholarships that allow them to study at the schools that seem to be the feeder system for SA.

 

[Adders]

I still don't see why the solution is to have quotas rather than invest in cricket at the grass roots level. Make sure that talented kids get scholarships that allow them to study at the schools that seem to be the feeder system for SA.

I agree with the principle of investment at grassroots level and I don't know if they are doing that but tbh, I'm not even sure how much money there would be in South African cricket for this to make a lot of difference.........they certainly don't have the wealth that the BCCI, ECB or CA would have to throw around.

But did you read Albi's post? He explained pretty clearly the benefits for the future of getting native faces in the side now.

 

[Marius]

I still don't see why the solution is to have quotas rather than invest in cricket at the grass roots level. Make sure that talented kids get scholarships that allow them to study at the schools that seem to be the feeder system for SA.

Agreed.

But that's not happening. I think a far better measure of 'transformation' would be to look at how many nets have been built in disadvantaged areas, or how much kit has been donated to those who can't afford it, or how many sustainable cricket clubs have been founded in townships or rural areas.

And as others have said, even if there were no quotas, the current national side would pretty much look how it does now.

 

[Marius]

I agree with the principle of investment at grassroots level and I don't know if they are doing that but tbh, I'm not even sure how much money there would be in South African cricket for this to make a lot of difference.........they certainly don't have the wealth that the BCCI, ECB or CA would have to throw around.

But did you read Albi's post? He explained pretty clearly the benefits for the future of getting native faces in the side now.

Natives? Du Plessis and De Villiers are descended from Hugenots who arrived in the late 1600s, their families have been in South Africa for over 300 years. Stephen Cook's is descended from 1820 Settlers, he can therefore trace his heritage back nearly 200 years.

When do people become native or is it linked solely to race?

 

[indiaholic]

I agree with the principle of investment at grassroots level and I don't know if they are doing that but tbh, I'm not even sure how much money there would be in South African cricket for this to make a lot of difference.........they certainly don't have the wealth that the BCCI, ECB or CA would have to throw around.

But did you read Albi's post? He explained pretty clearly the benefits for the future of getting native faces in the side now.

I disagree with Albi's post in the sense that I don't see the need to sacrifice meritocracy in national selection to achieve that objective. Guys like Rabada and Bavuma made it here because they studied in those private schools. And as you mentioned, that white people are just 8% of the population. The team will start reflecting the demographics if coloured kids are given opportunities similar to the ones that white kids have.

 

[Marius]

You are right that no one knows if quotas will achieve their desired results in time, but if you read Albi's post that I quoted he's made probably the best case I've seen on here for why they can.......but as he says it's a long game and the results won't be seen by this generation or possibly even the next.

To clarify my position on this I am not even pro quotas as I don't know for sure if they will work and I don't know if there are better ways. But I am certainly not against them because something needs to be done and that is why I have argued so strongly against people on here that categorically say they are wrong.

I've gone to wikipedia for these figures so am not sure of their accuracy, but black African's make up 80% of SA's population compared to around 8% white..........I can see the importance of having their national sporting teams getting a lot closer to this demographical split than they are now. And as I've said many times, in the short term these sporting teams may suffer with results if quotas mean it's not always the best players getting on the park.........but who gives a ****?? That really is a small price to pay compared to the vast majority of the 80% black population living in slums and poverty.

And let's not be coy.......they are there because a minority of 8% put them there and held them there for the best part of 50 years. The current inequality is just not going to resolve itself naturally, it will require sacrifice by those that have for the benefit of those that don't.

It's only sport FFS.......there is a lot more at stake here.

But the government is hardly just sitting around waiting for it to happen naturally. South Africa is the biggest welfare state in the developing world, and also has a highly progressive and redistributive taxation system, which makes a big difference to inequality.

In addition, government policies such as BEE and employment equity are all working to try see greater black involvement and ownership in the economy.