Ricky Ponting calls Lara selfish

[luckyeddie]

So what you're saying is Lara had such little belief in his bowlers and team that he decided, "Well we're not gonna win, so I may as well keep batting until I get to 400." Good attitude to take by a captain.

Not at all.

Why the hell do people keep trying to interpret my words to suit their own agenda?

The pitch was a quite appalling one for test cricket - more suited to a ODI. It was quite obvious to anyone with a brain that if the West Indies could score 750 for the loss of 5 wickets against an attack which had totally routed their much-vaunted batting line-up in the three previous tests that they would have extreme difficulty themselves in taking 20 wickets.

Their only realistic opportunity of victory was to totally wear down the opposition, removing all possibility of them having to bat for a second time - and you know what? It very nearly worked. If it had, Lara would have been lauded as a genius.

Ten years earlier, when Lara made 375 on the same ground on another featherbed, the West Indies DID declare just short of 600 and never had the remotest possibility of victory - in fact, they didn't even achieve a fiirst-innings lead.

The sign of a fool is one who keeps trying the same thing only expecting a different result this time. Lara recognised that, and tried something different in going on and on and on. It wasn't perceived as a positive attitude, but is that a bad thing?

Garfield Sobers was an extremely positive captain, and made a 'sporting' declaration in 1968 in an endeavour to force a victory which ended up costing a match, the series and a fair chunk of his reputation (but I don't suppose you remember that). He was absolutely castigated for it.

Funnily enough, the ground (St John's) has produced positive results on more than 50% of the occasions it has been used as a test venue - but never when any team has scored more than 500 in any innings (the highest being 500-7 in 1998). In the 9 matches which have been draws, there have been no less than 7 scores in excess of 500 - which indicates to me a balance too heavily in favour of the willow.

I think Lara (and everyone else) recognised that it was not a 'result' wicket (if avoiding being whitewashed in a home series does not qualify as a result) and having won the toss, played out the cards he was dealt in the only way he could.

 

[Slow Love™]

So what you're saying is Lara had such little belief in his bowlers and team that he decided, "Well we're not gonna win, so I may as well keep batting until I get to 400." Good attitude to take by a captain.

How is that what he's saying? I can't see that message in there at all. He's saying that Lara's innings wasn't selfish, and that they allowed themselves plenty of time to win the match. Given that it was such a batting paradise, I can't really see much fault in Lara's tactics. It kinda reminds me of India's huge innings in Sydney against Australia (although Ganguly did err in not enforcing the follow-on, which would have given them the best chance of winning the game).

As to Ponting, IMO he's a loudmouth with very little sense of discretion, and stupid opinions. Since his characterization of Lehmann as a "victim" after the fallout following his racist outburst, his insinuation that the Indian team were cheaters, his playing favorites within the Australian squad and his constant "we Australians wouldn't do that" bleating, he really irritates me.

 

[SquidAU]

For whatever reason Lara went for the record, he certainly picked up the spirits of the team and the supporters. Ponting needs to think before he talks. He might have been only saying that because Lara broke Hayden's record, which he had only held for 6 months. On the other hand, Hayden has had nothing but praise and happiness for Lara. At least, that's what he says to the press!

 

[age_master]

interesting question - should he have declared earlier. yes he probably should have, but its not often that a player is playing well enough to break a world record, and an hour or 2 isn't going to make that much difference in the long run...


its also better to draw than Lose from a WI point of view.

the other bonus was it allowed another bloke to score a hundred

comparing it to Haydens innings is kinda sillly really, Australia were always going to win that game...

Hayden - 380 runs, 437 balls, 38 boundaries and 11 sixes (also had Batsmen flowing from the other end - Gilly 113 off 94 balls) - team scored 6 dec for 735 from 146 overs

Lara - 400* 582 balls 43 boundaris and 5 sixes (not as free flowing support - Jacobs 107 from 206) team scored 751 from 202 overs

 

[Lions81]

Not at all.

Why the hell do people keep trying to interpret my words to suit their own agenda?

QUOTE]

You say that as if I took your post to the U.N. and said claimed you endorsed an invasion of Saudi Arabia or something. Maybe a soothing cup of tea is in order? There's no need to get so overly worked up! You do realize that an argument is one in which two people argue in favor of opposing ideas, and one tactic is to take what the other person has said and show that there are contradictions in it. That is what I was trying to do, so don't get so mad. Of course your counter-argument should be that I've misread your words, not something of out of 1984.

 

[luckyeddie]

You say that as if I took your post to the U.N. and said claimed you endorsed an invasion of Saudi Arabia or something. Maybe a soothing cup of tea is in order? There's no need to get so overly worked up! You do realize that an argument is one in which two people argue in favor of opposing ideas, and one tactic is to take what the other person has said and show that there are contradictions in it. That is what I was trying to do, so don't get so mad. Of course your counter-argument should be that I've misread your words, not something of out of 1984.

I doubt anyone claiming to hail from New York would be allowed to take anything to the United Nations again, if Colin Powell's last pile of guff was anything to go by. Possibly a bill for back rent, but that's about it

I'm more of a coffee man, but thanks anyway. I understand that tea and the USA don't mix. They never could get the hang of 'one for each person and one for the pot' - the water has to be hot too, and not salty like Boston harbour.

I'm hardly likely to get worked up debating on a message board, but thanks again for your concern. It's good to think that some young people still have respect for the elderly.

Yes I do realise what an argument is, unfortunately you do not seem to demonstrate such awareness yourself. You appear to be confusing gainsaying with argument, but it's a start. I give you a C+ for effort.

Have you ever read 1984?

Have a nice day - back to the cricket.

 

[marc71178]

Well quite frankly I'm sleeping better at night now I the knowledge that the record has been scored against creditable opposition.

I'd say it's the first since Hutton that it's come against a decent attack.

 

[marc71178]

So what you're saying is Lara had such little belief in his bowlers and team that he decided, "Well we're not gonna win, so I may as well keep batting until I get to 400." Good attitude to take by a captain.

Erm, he said nothing like that - he looked at it and worked out the best strategy given that they were still batting at Tea on Day 2 (bear in mind Day 1 was shortened somewhat)

 

[marc71178]

Hayden - 380 runs, 437 balls, 38 boundaries and 11
sixes (also had Batsmen flowing from the other end - Gilly 113 off 94 balls) - team scored 6 dec for 735 from 146 overs

Lara - 400* 582 balls 43 boundaris and 5 sixes (not as free flowing support - Jacobs 107 from 206) team scored 751 from 202 overs

And I think that to me says how well England actually bowled in that game - the drying up tactics secured a draw IMO.

 

[hellnback]

I'd say it's the first since Hutton that it's come against a decent attack.

It's not Sobers fault that the Pakistani's two main strike bowler broke down... Also I'm not sure when the declaration would've came, but Hammond kept his side batting in 1938 UNTIL it was confirmed that Bradman wasn't able to bat after he rolled his ankle whilst bowling, dunno if it effected Hutton's completion of 364 though as that was a 13 hour innings (the same as Lara), but they were the days of 'timeless tests'

Anyway, was England's attack in 94/95 'that' bad??? I'm sure it was alot better than Zimbabwe's on it's worst of days.

Hayden - 380 runs, 437 balls, 38 boundaries and 11 sixes (also had Batsmen flowing from the other end - Gilly 113 off 94 balls) - team scored 6 dec for 735 from 146 overs

Just goes to show how bad the boeling must've been... Couldn't even plug one end. Man do the Zimbabwean's just like to bleed out or what??? People normally try to stop the bleeding.

On a side-note, I'd personally like to take the opportunity to congratulate Lara on the completion of the quickest Test Quad-Ton :P

 

[marc71178]

It's not Sobers fault that the Pakistani's two main strike bowler broke down.

And it's not Hayden's fault Zimbabwe's attack is rubbish, but that doesn't change that fact if Hayden's is going to be put down, then so IMO should Sobers.

Anyway, was England's attack in 94/95 'that' bad??? I'm sure it was alot better than Zimbabwe's on it's worst of days.

Better than Zimbabwe's now, but in all honesty, it wasn't that good.

 

[Swervy]

I'd say it's the first since Hutton that it's come against a decent attack.

Huttons wasnt even vs a good attack...the two Lara records were vs the only decent bowling attacks.

I personally feel that Laras inning was a tad selfish...but why not go for the 400, my criticism is that WI's batting was painfully slow considering the circumstances, and they could have got the 750 probably a good 90 minutes quicker if Lara had have given the green light to...he could have had the record score and won the game.

And fair do's to ponting, he can say what he wants..lara is big enough now, i am sure he wont lose too much sleep over it

 

[luckyeddie]

At the end of the day, none of the record-breakers deserve to be put down at all, irrespective of the standard of the opposition.

Marathons are not just about scoring, defending and the standard of attack - they are an exercise in concentration - holding it together better or for longer than anyone has ever done before. As such, every single record from Bannerman right through to Lara mk2 is worthy of praise.

 

[Swervy]

At the end of the day, none of the record-breakers deserve to be put down at all, irrespective of the standard of the opposition.

Marathons are not just about scoring, defending and the standard of attack - they are an exercise in concentration - holding it together better or for longer than anyone has ever done before. As such, every single record from Bannerman right through to Lara mk2 is worthy of praise.

abso-bloody-lutely...i couldnt beleive the rubbish that was flying around when Hayden got the record...who gives a stuff who the opposition..didnt see anyone else get 380 that innings

 

[Lions81]

I doubt anyone claiming to hail from New York would be allowed to take anything to the United Nations again, if Colin Powell's last pile of guff was anything to go by. Possibly a bill for back rent, but that's about it

I'm more of a coffee man, but thanks anyway. I understand that tea and the USA don't mix. They never could get the hang of 'one for each person and one for the pot' - the water has to be hot too, and not salty like Boston harbour.

I'm hardly likely to get worked up debating on a message board, but thanks again for your concern. It's good to think that some young people still have respect for the elderly.

Yes I do realise what an argument is, unfortunately you do not seem to demonstrate such awareness yourself. You appear to be confusing gainsaying with argument, but it's a start. I give you a C+ for effort.

Have you ever read 1984?

Have a nice day - back to the cricket.

I don't think we need to start making fun of one another's governments, especially since your government does whatever my government tells it to.

And yes I have read 1984. Winston Smith lives constantly in fear of saying anything that would be twisted by Minitrue as being against the Oceania government. Sounds a bit like you complaing why "everyone" twists your words around.

Also, honestly, I don't know what your deal is Lucky Eddie. If you dislike me for some reason, let's clear the air. You can e-mail me and let me know what exactly it is you hate about me and why, especially since you all but called me a racist on another thread.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Excuses?

I wouldn't call it 'excuses'. Australia declared with two hours to go on day two. Hayden's 380 is perfectly compatible with Ponting's stated Australian policy. I think the exception comes out of the fact that it is "exceptional" when a player can score 376 in five sessions.

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread already, but Lara would have broken the world record on day two had it not rained on day one. 48 overs were lost on day one.

 

[Sehwag309]

They got it wrong, he was saying lara is shell fish

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

They got it wrong, he was saying lara is shell fish

Ah, well it all makes sense then.

 

[marc71178]

A Prawn again Christian?

 

[marc71178]

They got it wrong, he was saying lara is shell fish

Typical Aussie, always thinking of the BBQ!