Richard Hadlee vs Curtly Ambrose

trundler · Nov 10, 2021

19 years is truly ridiculous for a fast bowler and it's not chopping up bits when one player has a good run that's longer than the other's whole career. Penalizing someone for being serviceable as a teen is stupid.

a massive zebra · Nov 10, 2021

Slifer said:
Umm it's not much longer. Akram played 104 tests, Ambrose 98. Difference of 6 tests. And since we're nit picking all of a sudden, I'm willing to bet that Akram played many more tests in the 90s vs Zimbabwe and 90s SL. While Ambrose was busy taking the likes of Australia apart.

Ps Ambrose debuted later FYI, because he wasn't particularly interested in cricket. He only played to please his mom.

What's wrong with 90s Sri Lanka? They won the world cup, won Test series in New Zealand, Pakistan and England, beat Australia at home in 1999. They had Jayasuriya, Aravinda, Tillakaratne, Ranatunga, Gurusinha, Murali, Vaas. A perfectly respectable side and better than the current Sri Lanka team surely.

a massive zebra · Nov 10, 2021

ankitj said:
Biggest thing against Akram is that he picked a much higher proportion of tail wickets and still ended up with inferior average to most other greats.

And there are very few examples of him running through a top order, which is not the case with most other ATGs including Ambrose.

Slifer · Nov 10, 2021

a massive zebra said:
What's wrong with 90s Sri Lanka? They won the world cup, won Test series in New Zealand, Pakistan and England, beat Australia at home in 1999. They had Jayasuriya, Aravinda, Tillakaratne, Gurusinha, Murali, Vaas. A perfectly respectable side and better than the current Sri Lanka team surely.

Australia >> SL ,And I noticed you said nothing about Zimbabwe. In the 90s, Akram played 10 tests vs them. Put it this way, instead of Ambrose playing the 27 tests or so vs Australia, let's replace those games with SL and Zimbabwe and watch his stats change. The fact that Amby had better/comparable stats than Akram in the 90s despite generally playing better teams (especially Australia)speaks volumes.

Slifer · Nov 10, 2021

Another question, people seem to be making a big deal about Akram playing 19 years specifically in comparison to Curtly. But that's also much more than most of his near contemporaries: lilee, McGrath, Marshall, Donald, Steyn etc....

Slifer · Nov 10, 2021

trundler said:
19 years is truly ridiculous for a fast bowler and it's not chopping up bits when one player has a good run that's longer than the other's whole career. Penalizing someone for being serviceable as a teen is stupid.

???

ankitj · Nov 10, 2021

% of tail ender wickets

Player	08-11 (%)	Avg	S/R
Underwood, D L	23.57	25.84	73.61
Philander, V D	24.55	22.32	50.85
Statham, J B	24.6	24.85	63.71
McGrath, G D	25.22	21.64	51.95
Willis, R G D	25.23	25.2	53.41
Donald, A A	26.06	22.25	47.03
Marshall, M D	26.33	20.95	46.77
Hazlewood, J R	26.42	25.65	56.07
Lillee, D K	27.32	23.92	52.02
Ambrose, C E L	27.65	20.99	54.58
Holding, M A	27.71	23.69	50.92
Bedser, A V	28.39	24.9	67.45
Imran Khan	28.73	22.81	53.75
Waqar Younis	29.22	23.56	43.5
Lindwall, R R	29.39	23.03	59.87
Pollock, S M	29.45	23.12	57.85
Hadlee, R J	29.93	22.3	50.85
Walsh, C A	31.41	24.44	57.84
Trueman, F S	31.6	21.58	49.44
Steyn, D W	31.66	22.95	42.39
Muralitharan, M	32.5	22.73	55.05
Ashwin, R	32.93	24.56	52.47
Garner, J	33.59	20.98	50.85
Wasim Akram	35.02	23.62	54.65
Warne, S K	37.15	25.42	57.49

The Sean · Nov 10, 2021

ankitj said:
% of tail ender wickets

Player
08-11 (%)
Avg
S/R
Underwood, D L
23.57
25.84
73.61
Philander, V D
24.55
22.32
50.85
Statham, J B
24.6
24.85
63.71
McGrath, G D
25.22
21.64
51.95
Willis, R G D
25.23
25.2
53.41
Donald, A A
26.06
22.25
47.03
Marshall, M D
26.33
20.95
46.77
Hazlewood, J R
26.42
25.65
56.07
Lillee, D K
27.32
23.92
52.02
Ambrose, C E L
27.65
20.99
54.58
Holding, M A
27.71
23.69
50.92
Bedser, A V
28.39
24.9
67.45
Imran Khan
28.73
22.81
53.75
Waqar Younis
29.22
23.56
43.5
Lindwall, R R
29.39
23.03
59.87
Pollock, S M
29.45
23.12
57.85
Hadlee, R J
29.93
22.3
50.85
Walsh, C A
31.41
24.44
57.84
Trueman, F S
31.6
21.58
49.44
Steyn, D W
31.66
22.95
42.39
Muralitharan, M
32.5
22.73
55.05
Ashwin, R
32.93
24.56
52.47
Garner, J
33.59
20.98
50.85
Wasim Akram
35.02
23.62
54.65
Warne, S K
37.15
25.42
57.49

Keith Miller 22.4%. Because fanboy.

Slifer · Nov 10, 2021

Migara said:
The likes of Ambrose, Warne, Marshall, McGrath had more chances to bowl to the tail than Murali or Hadlee, hence they had access to cheaper wickets. If Hadlee or murali had another ATG at other end, their WPM will become less, but their SR's and averages will be much better.

Now I'm no mathematician or anything but I believe you're little theory "appears" to be a bit off...

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

Slifer said:
Now I'm no mathematician or anything but I believe you're little theory "appears" to be a bit off...

Exactly the case.

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

kyear2 said:
Apparently I'm missing something, but this doesn't make sense to me. They didn't get to bowl at the tail?

Less often than say West Indies of 80s or Australia of 95-05. Hence the chances of having cheaper wickets was less.

Slifer · Nov 10, 2021

Migara said:
Exactly the case.

Bro your point was disproven and made no sense to begin with. Admit you were wrong and just move on....smh

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

Australia 01.01.1996 to 31.12.2005 - 120M, 2086W - 17.38WPM
Sri Lanka 01.01.1996 to 31.12.2005 - 91M, 1425W - 15.65 WPM

Aussie bowlers in averages gets uo to #8 /9, while SL bowlers it's #7/8. Average by batting position will show that lower the batsman, cheaper the wicket.

Put it another way, If we have a bowler who takes 10 WPM, and his support comes up with 2WPM, there is more chance that the team will not bowl at opposition's 9, 10 and Jack often. If we have a team with collective WPM of 19, then that team will more times bring in 9, 10 and Jack of opposition so they could be picked up cheaply.

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

Slifer said:
Bro your point was disproven and made no sense to begin with. Admit you were wrong and just move on....smh

Wow, I like to see that proof, if you are not deluded or something.

Slifer · Nov 10, 2021

ankitj said:
% of tail ender wickets

Player
08-11 (%)
Avg
S/R
Underwood, D L
23.57
25.84
73.61
Philander, V D
24.55
22.32
50.85
Statham, J B
24.6
24.85
63.71
McGrath, G D
25.22
21.64
51.95
Willis, R G D
25.23
25.2
53.41
Donald, A A
26.06
22.25
47.03
Marshall, M D
26.33
20.95
46.77
Hazlewood, J R
26.42
25.65
56.07
Lillee, D K
27.32
23.92
52.02
Ambrose, C E L
27.65
20.99
54.58
Holding, M A
27.71
23.69
50.92
Bedser, A V
28.39
24.9
67.45
Imran Khan
28.73
22.81
53.75
Waqar Younis
29.22
23.56
43.5
Lindwall, R R
29.39
23.03
59.87
Pollock, S M
29.45
23.12
57.85
Hadlee, R J
29.93
22.3
50.85
Walsh, C A
31.41
24.44
57.84
Trueman, F S
31.6
21.58
49.44
Steyn, D W
31.66
22.95
42.39
Muralitharan, M
32.5
22.73
55.05
Ashwin, R
32.93
24.56
52.47
Garner, J
33.59
20.98
50.85
Wasim Akram
35.02
23.62
54.65
Warne, S K
37.15
25.42
57.49

According to the above table, Murali and Hadlee collected higher proportions of tail end wickets. And as I told you before, Marshall hardly had a shot at the tail due to the likes of Garner being present. Again see the table above !!

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

The Sean said:
Keith Miller 22.4%. Because fanboy.

This nicely illustrates my point. Vaas' lower order share is 22.8%, Murali's 32.5% vs McGrath's 25.2% vs Warne's 37.2%. Australia took more wickets and the more wickets they took were tail enders. They were winning because they were able to get tail enders to the crease and get them cheaply.

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

Slifer said:
According to the above table, Murali and Hadlee collected higher proportions of tail end wickets. And as I told you before, Marshall hardly had a shot at the tail due to the likes of Garner being present. Again see the table above !!

I see Garner right at the Botton, just above Warne, who has done the mopping up jobs. Yeah, we see it . . .

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

ankitj said:
% of tail ender wickets

Player
08-11 (%)
Avg
S/R
Underwood, D L
23.57
25.84
73.61
Philander, V D
24.55
22.32
50.85
Statham, J B
24.6
24.85
63.71
McGrath, G D
25.22
21.64
51.95
Willis, R G D
25.23
25.2
53.41
Donald, A A
26.06
22.25
47.03
Marshall, M D
26.33
20.95
46.77
Hazlewood, J R
26.42
25.65
56.07
Lillee, D K
27.32
23.92
52.02
Ambrose, C E L
27.65
20.99
54.58
Holding, M A
27.71
23.69
50.92
Bedser, A V
28.39
24.9
67.45
Imran Khan
28.73
22.81
53.75
Waqar Younis
29.22
23.56
43.5
Lindwall, R R
29.39
23.03
59.87
Pollock, S M
29.45
23.12
57.85
Hadlee, R J
29.93
22.3
50.85
Walsh, C A
31.41
24.44
57.84
Trueman, F S
31.6
21.58
49.44
Steyn, D W
31.66
22.95
42.39
Muralitharan, M
32.5
22.73
55.05
Ashwin, R
32.93
24.56
52.47
Garner, J
33.59
20.98
50.85
Wasim Akram
35.02
23.62
54.65
Warne, S K
37.15
25.42
57.49

Surprise, surprise, Stuart MacGill 38.8%

Migara · Nov 10, 2021

And in the case of Hadlee,

Chatfield 30.9%
Cairns 27.7%
Bracewell 29.4%

No one did a mop up job like Garner or Warne.

Further illustrates my point. More WPM as team, more chance to get tail end wickets.

trundler · Nov 10, 2021

Against weaker teams, teams would be chasing lower targets and declaring more often so the tail gets exposed less. Makes sense imo.

Richard Hadlee vs Curtly Ambrose

Who was the greater bowler?

Richard Hadlee

Curtly Ambrose

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