Razzaq...

[Neil Pickup]

I think I can. Currently Pollock is close to joining the 3000 run / 300 wicket club whilst Kallis is currently the best all-rounder to be playing the game (admittedly his batting is still first class though his bowling is suffering)

Jacques Kallis is no longer a true all rounder for me, much more of a batsman who bowls.

In 2003 & 2004 he has a grand total of 30 Test wickets at over 40 apiece, and the strike rate is sliding out rapidly.

Freddy in 2004 has 803 Test -runs @ 57.36, and 35 wickets @ 25.28, and over the 2003-04 period, 813 ODI runs @ 65+, with 38 wickets @ 19. Whilst Klusener.. well, it's hardly worth bothering... One Test in three years, and this years ODI figures are 195@22 and 17@36.

No contest.

 

[Western Warrior]

Up and comer?? Jeez man, the guy is right there.

I will have to disagree. His performances in the last two seasons have been excellent and he is one of the most balanced cricketers currently playing the game. However, I do firmly believe the best is yet to come. Furthermore I think the jury is still out as to whether he can sustain his excellent performances.

In the next two years, especially with the up and coming Ashes tour he will have to shoulder a fairly heavy batting and bowling responsibility. Despite his strong physique I am interested to see whether he can keep it up or whether he will sucumb to the old adage "the candle that burns twice as bright only burns half as long"

 

[twctopcat]

Fair enough, i suppose no-one will be happy until the ashes are come and gone to properly evaluate his form. But 2 seasons as neil has pointed out is pretty consistent if you ask me.

 

[Western Warrior]

Fair enough, i suppose no-one will be happy until the ashes are come and gone to properly evaluate his form. But 2 seasons as neil has pointed out is pretty consistent if you ask me.

I will reserve my judgement. It has become a curse in English cricket to be proclaimed the next Botham, a tag that has already been stuck to Flintoff. I think quite a few people are currently caught up in the hype that is surrounding young Andy and aren't not thinking as clearly as they should.

Statistically it was only the recent test tour of New Zealand (bat 45.90/bowl 62.47) and the West Indies (51.25/24.69) that his averages began to move in positive directions. Against India, South Africa, Sri Lanka and even Zimbabwe he posts quite mediocre figures.

His ODI stats are far better but until he reflect positive results against all the major cricket playing nations in both forms of the game (especially Australia during the Ashes series) he will still be seen by many as either a flash in the pan or another limited overs specialist al la Symonds.

I personally will wait one of two more seasons. If he can sustain his momentum, maintain his fitness and continue with his current excellent performance then I will acknowledge him as a true all-rounder rather than the an up-and-comer he is now.

 

[marc71178]

Against India, South Africa, Sri Lanka and even Zimbabwe he posts quite mediocre figures.

You say that, yet the Zimbabwe side he faced was the 2000 vintage (which is far removed from the current side)

The first 6 Tests he played against SA where when he was hampered by injury for his bowling.

Also, with India, it was before he was able to be bowling injury free.

Then look at his combined 2003 and 2004 stats:

1369 runs @ 48.89 and 54 wickets @ 31.44

Compare that to:
Pollock (526 @ 17.00, 71 @ 23.69)
Kallis (1512 @ 65.73, 30 @ 41.46)
Klusener (2 @ 2.00, 2 @ 54.50)
Cairns (467 @ 38.92, 21 @ 32.14)

Yet you rate all 4 of the above ahead of him?

I personally will wait one of two more seasons. If he can sustain his momentum, maintain his fitness and continue with his current excellent performance then I will acknowledge him as a true all-rounder rather than the an up-and-comer he is now.

So how come you still rate Klusener ahead of him (which is definitely based on former glories)

 

[Western Warrior]

You say that, yet the Zimbabwe side he faced was the 2000 vintage (which is far removed from the current side)

The first 6 Tests he played against SA where when he was hampered by injury for his bowling.

Also, with India, it was before he was able to be bowling injury free.

Then look at his combined 2003 and 2004 stats:

1369 runs @ 48.89 and 54 wickets @ 31.44

Compare that to:
Pollock (526 @ 17.00, 71 @ 23.69)
Kallis (1512 @ 65.73, 30 @ 41.46)
Klusener (2 @ 2.00, 2 @ 54.50)
Cairns (467 @ 38.92, 21 @ 32.14)

Yet you rate all 4 of the above ahead of him?

So how come you still rate Klusener ahead of him (which is definitely based on former glories)

Hi Marc, don't get me wrong, I rate Flintoff highly (funny how this started off as a Razzaq thread) but I still believe he has a ways to go before he can be classified as a true and consistently performing all-rounder.

You are right in regards to basing my ratings on former glories as this is exactly what I am doing. It is true that Klusener is certainly past his best and has one foot in the retirement door. However, his record stands above Flintoff (at the moment) when his entire career is taken into account. The same goes for Cairns.

If I had to come up with a rough and ready list of all-rounders who are currently playing it would be.

1) - Kallis (though slipping as he is now a batsman who bowls rather than a true allrounder)
2) - Pollock
3) - Razzaq (based on his entire career)
4) - Flintoff (based on his last 2 years)

I have left Klusener and Cairns out for obvious reasons. I would like to add Shahid Afridi to that list but I think I will hold off for now.

 

[deeps]

under bob woolmer's coaching, afridi's game has improved heaps. His bowling is becoming much more reliable, and his batting is also slightly more tempered, and he still has the capacity to hit quick runs.. i remember a ODI against india a month or two back, where pakistan needed 40 odd runs of 30 odd deliveries... afridi hit irfan pathan around the park for about 20 runs in an over, and made a quick fire 25 or 30 and the game was easily pakistans.....


but he is not up to that level of the BEST all rounders YET. remember, hes only 22 or so..the same age as michael clarke, and he's achieved alot by that stage!

 

[twctopcat]

All this talk of how good Kallis, Pollock, Klusener and Cairns are but it's not as if they're records speak volumes with regards to australia. If Freddy continues this form he will be known as one of the greatest allrounders ever. If anything a dip in form against the aussies will just show us he is human like the rest of the so called "best" above, who have all encountered the same thing.

 

[tooextracool]

Hi Marc, don't get me wrong, I rate Flintoff highly (funny how this started off as a Razzaq thread) but I still believe he has a ways to go before he can be classified as a true and consistently performing all-rounder.

and kallis has been performing consistently with the ball hasnt he?

 

[Western Warrior]

All this talk of how good Kallis, Pollock, Klusener and Cairns are but it's not as if they're records speak volumes with regards to australia. If Freddy continues this form he will be known as one of the greatest allrounders ever. If anything a dip in form against the aussies will just show us he is human like the rest of the so called "best" above, who have all encountered the same thing.

Again, agreed! Everyones record has suffered to a degree due to Australia's dominance since 2000. I think people are of the impression that I do not rate Flintoff that highly. That is far from the truth. I do rate Flintoff quite highly but I do not want to get involved in the hype that surrounds him at this time.

Many a player has arrived on the scene being heralded as the new Botham or the new Imran Kahn etc etc, only to disappoint when they were unable to sustain their initial good form.

I am therefore adopting a wait and see attitude with Flintoff. If his performances continue at their current excellent level then the hype surrounding him will be justified and he will most likely go down in the record books as one of the sports great all-rounders.

Just remember, two seasons, regardless of how good they are do not make a great batsman, bowler or all-rounder.

 

[marc71178]

Hi Marc, don't get me wrong, I rate Flintoff highly (funny how this started off as a Razzaq thread) but I still believe he has a ways to go before he can be classified as a true and consistently performing all-rounder.

Yet you still rate others ahead of him even when they've been either playing poorly as all rounders (as shown by those stats for 2003 and 2004 - Kallis has been a batsman filling in with the ball and Pollock a specialist bowler!) or not even playing!

You are right in regards to basing my ratings on former glories as this is exactly what I am doing.

Quick reminder to you - the year is 2004, not 2001. Therefore 2004 performances have far more rlevance than 2001.

It is true that Klusener is certainly past his best and has one foot in the retirement door. However, his record stands above Flintoff (at the moment) when his entire career is taken into account. The same goes for Cairns.

Flintoff: 2012 @ 32.98, 87 @ 37.40
Klusener: 1906 @ 32.86, 80 @ 37.91

Yes, I can see how Klusener's record stands above Flintoff's there.

1) - Kallis (though slipping as he is now a batsman who bowls rather than a true allrounder)
2) - Pollock
3) - Razzaq (based on his entire career)
4) - Flintoff (based on his last 2 years)

So let me get this straight, you rate Razzaq ahead of Flintoff at the moment?

I have left Klusener and Cairns out for obvious reasons. I would like to add Shahid Afridi to that list but I think I will hold off for now.

Afridi - now you really are talking complete tripe!

 

[marc71178]

Just remember, two seasons, regardless of how good they are do not make a great batsman, bowler or all-rounder.

And conversely, they don't appear to make a once-good/great player average.

 

[Western Warrior]

And conversely, they don't appear to make a once-good/great player average.

I have to disagree there. Two bad seasons will see a good/great player dropped!!!! Just ask Mark Waugh for example.

 

[Joao_Quinto]

I laugh on your petty arguments when I know secretly (well not so secretly now) that one SR Watson will eclipse said records plus some of the likes of GS Sobers, Imran, Miller (Terribly dissapointed that I'll never meet him), Procter and Mankad.
Well maybe not eclipse because that would be stupid but hell be the best, Im sure.

 

[marc71178]

Well how come you still rate Kallis and Pollock as better all rounders than Flintoff then, when their last 2 years show them to be world class in one discipline and quite poor in the other?

 

[Western Warrior]

Well how come you still rate Kallis and Pollock as better all rounders than Flintoff then, when their last 2 years show them to be world class in one discipline and quite poor in the other?

Because I love a good argument! and also, as I have now said atleast 8 times. I am taking their entire career into account, as I have with Flintoff rather than just a part of it.

Also, since you are staff member how about you change the title of this thread to Flintoff rather than Razzaq.

 

[Western Warrior]

I laugh on your petty arguments when I know secretly (well not so secretly now) that one SR Watson will eclipse said records plus some of the likes of GS Sobers, Imran, Miller (Terribly dissapointed that I'll never meet him), Procter and Mankad.
Well maybe not eclipse because that would be stupid but hell be the best, Im sure.

That's if his back holds out. I think he might displace Lehmann in the ODI team but I doubt he'll see a test cap any time soon. By the time he does he will probably be past his prime...sadly!

 

[Behlol]

well razzaq is one of the allrounders who can turn the game like Shahid afridi(better than him)

 

[Western Warrior]

well razzaq is one of the allrounders who can turn the game like Shahid afridi(better than him)

Who does Pakistan have lined up to replace ul Haq as captain. Razzaq is still young but it already a seasoned campaigner. He seems to have a good cricket brain behind him and is also one of the calmer Pakistani players.

I think they could do worse.

 

[Joao_Quinto]

That's if his back holds out. I think he might displace Lehmann in the ODI team but I doubt he'll see a test cap any time soon. By the time he does he will probably be past his prime...sadly!

I couldn't agree with you more, but I hope Im wrong. I dont think the selectors realise that all rounders cant bowl forever as it is too physically demanding when they are expected to score runs, al la Kallis.

I think his bowling talent might end up wasted unless he gets a run in the test team soon.