Ranking the candidates for best fast bowler ever - ~20 contenders

[trundler]

I can agree with pre WW2 quicks. Trueman and Lindwall don't look that dated, judging by their methods and bowling actions.

 

[fredfertang]

To be honest I didn't give it too much thought from 5 down - my linked comment about Steyn was probably intended to prompt a reaction rather than anything else as he's clearly a class act, but on reflection five is a bit high

 

[a massive zebra]

Well, both are pretty blasphemous, especially since Bedser is ahead of both. Tyson that high is unfair too. I'll admit that Larwood has his merits at #1. Looks like Fred doesn't value longevity much.

Why would you say Larwood is more deserving of a high ranking than Tyson? Sure. he is remembered more fondly amongst cricket historians and old players but I would say this is due to reasons that are independent of his quality as a bowler. Namely,

1) The iconic status of his great series and the controversial methods used.
2) His beautiful bowling action.

Both Larwood and Tyson played a highly influential role in winning an Ashes series away from home but didn't do a huge amount else in their international career.

 

[trundler]

Well he was pioneer of sorts, wasn't he? In terms of skill he's probably in the bottom 10 but his (supposed) impact on fast bowling and how the game is played makes him a contender for greatest, not best. I'm only saying I can see why. He was the first menacing upwards of 95 MPH fast bowler of quality.

 

[Bolo]

I can agree with pre WW2 quicks. Trueman and Lindwall don't look that dated, judging by their methods and bowling actions.

Footage is limited and poor quality. You can say they look similar enough to modern bowlers to succeed in the modern era, but I don't think you can judge them either way in relation to the top 25 bowlers based on the footage.

 

[trundler]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I go at it like this:
Benaud and Bradman rate Lillee over Lindwall whom I've not seen. I've seen ample footage of Lillee and McGrath to say the the latter was better and since he was McGrath>Lindwall. It's relying on word of mouth but that's the best we can do unless someone invents a time machine.

 

[fredfertang]

the controversial methods used.
2) His beautiful bowling action.

Both Larwood and Tyson played a highly influential role in winning an Ashes series away from home but didn't do a huge amount else in their international career.

Bit harsh - he played significant roles in 1926 and 1928/29 as well - obviously the less said about 1930 the better .......................

 

[a massive zebra]

Bit harsh - he played significant roles in 1926 and 1928/29 as well - obviously the less said about 1930 the better .......................

Maybe a bit harsh. Larwood started the 1928/29 Ashes well but lost form as the tour went on and finished the series with an average of over 40. Here is what Wisden had to say about Larwood's performance on this tour:

Larwood, bowling finely to begin with, did not maintain his form in the later matches. On that memorable afternoon at Brisbane when Australia lost four wickets for 40 runs, Larwood was faster than I have ever seen him, but after the third Test he lost something of his pace and nip off the pitch. Still, whatever his shortcomings subsequently, he certainly laid the foundations of our success at Brisbane and had no small share in the victory at Sydney.

I suppose he did play a significant role in the match England won in 1926 but that was only one match after all.

 

[a massive zebra]

Barnes is clearly the best of the medium pacers. I decided to group him with the swing bowlers as he is one of the earliest exponents of the art (after probably Hirst) and the first to master it like he did (maybe I'm wrong here).

You're not wrong here. The American Bart King also mastered swing before Barnes but the latter was recognised as a more dynamic bowler with more tricks at his disposal.

 

[fredfertang]

I suppose he did play a significant role in the match England won in 1926 but that was only one match after all.

But what a match

 

[a massive zebra]

But what a match

Indeed.

 

[Engle]

Take away Bodyline and Larwood wood have a meagre 45 wickets at 35 avg.

His last series before BodyLine in 1930 vs Australia fetched him 4 wickets in 3 Tests at 73 avg.

Anemic at best

 

[fredfertang]

Anemic at best

It was dental problems that afflicted him in 1930, not anaemia

 

[Bolo]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I go at it like this:
Benaud and Bradman rate Lillee over Lindwall whom I've not seen. I've seen ample footage of Lillee and McGrath to say the the latter was better and since he was McGrath>Lindwall. It's relying on word of mouth but that's the best we can do unless someone invents a time machine.

I never put much stock in the opinion of one or two people, no matter how much cricket they have watched or how highly they are thought of. I've never come across a commentator without some questionable opinions, and pretty much all the older ones have a pretty serious bias problem, whether as a result of exposure or other.

With Lillee though, there is so much concensus on his ability from before the great 80s and 90s quicks that I think we can judge him relative to the post war quicks with a fair amount of reliability.

From Lillee on we have proper footage and far more reliable stats (wider range of opponents, conditions, more games...), so it becomes easier to judge.

 

[Burgey]

Why would you say Larwood is more deserving of a high ranking than Tyson? Sure. he is remembered more fondly amongst cricket historians and old players but I would say this is due to reasons that are independent of his quality as a bowler. Namely,

1) The iconic status of his great series and the controversial methods used.
2) His beautiful bowling action.

Both Larwood and Tyson played a highly influential role in winning an Ashes series away from home but didn't do a huge amount else in their international career.

He made Bradman human. That’s a pretty fair effort.

 

[Bolo]

He made Bradman human. That’s a pretty fair effort.

Larwood did ok against Bradman. Got him out 5 times in his career, with Bradman making a just lower average out than his career (78 vs 84).

Cricinfo - Statsguru - DG Bradman - Test Batting - Bowlers/fielders dismissed by

He did well against Bradman in bodyline, but the circumstances were pretty extreme and he wouldn't have had that success without a combination of rules, tactics, gear etc.

The Bradman factor partly accounts for larwoods high bowling average, but I don't think there is reason to hold him on a podium for doing well against Bradman.

 

[Engle]

He made Bradman human. That’s a pretty fair effort.

Given the conditions of Bodyline, so would a fair amount of fasties that are not even listed in this top 25.

viz. Patrick Patterson, Colin Croft, Shane Bond, Wes Hall, Shoaib....and of course, Thommo.

Had Thommo been an Englishman under Jardine's wing, that would've been the most frightening scenario ever. Bradman would've been reduced much further. Perhaps even physically and psychologically scarred.

 

[MartinB]

Haha it seems that whenever I add a new feature to make it more accurate I get results that line up more with general CW opinions, with the exception of Lillee who it seems to rate lower and lower every time.

I think a big thing with Lillee is World Series Cricket. Evaluating him only based on Test cricket not only takes away a bit of longevity but also ignores some awesome bowling against some of the best batting lineups of all time.

It was not just WSC, there was also World 11 in 72, South Africa 76. From memory his figures from unofficial test that I know of where approximately

          tests   wickets    average
World 11      4        24       20.5
SA            3        21       17.5
WSC          14        68       26.5
WSC NZ        1        12        7.5

If you include the unofficial tests lillee played 92 matches and took about 480+ wickets. Apart from Thommo (51 + 5 WSC), the Australia bowlers of period played < 45 tests.

 

[jimmy101]

Gotta sneak Wes Hall into this contest somehow. The guy was the best of his kind in the world for some time. Feared the world over.

 

[jimmy101]

Oh and also Maurice freaking Tate, Come on guys!