Rank them : Donald, Imran and Akram

[subshakerz]

Waqar lost his mojo after 96 world cup, so yes Wasim was regarded the best after that but again it was based on both formats IMO

Waqar lost his mojo in 95 with back injury.

 

[ankitj]

Waqar lost his mojo in 95 with back injury.

Right. World came to realise about an year later.

 

[shortpitched713]

Akram 3rd. Least consistent of the 3.

It depends for me between the other 2 which I would have higher. I usually go Donald, but it depends on my mood, and who is annoying me more in the neverending subz vs kyear debate.

 

[Bolo.]

They were pretty much all tampering in that era. Imran at least admitted it.

Holding: 'I won't pretend I never tampered with the ball'.

There's a reason Hadlee himself pushed for legalising ball tampering.

Just about everyone tampered, and anyone who doesn't admit this has some nationalistic blinders on. It may as well have been legal under the rules at that stage.

People get especially pissed with Pak are getting pissed cos they were especially good at it. I get it. I'm still pissed about the strength of the Aus batting at their peak, and how good India have been at home more recently.

 

[kyear2]

I cannot ignore that Imran was a proven (self-confessed?) ball tamperer so I can't rate him, and his fellow Pakistani quicks, ahead of other ATGs.

I would still acknowledge his skill.

To a question regarding a county game where he admittedly ****ed up the ball, his retort was that no one else manged to utilize it until he came back on.

While that was ridiculous to an extent it was also true.

But it's also one of the reasons I look at his away record more closely than even other ATGs.

But he was undoubtedly skillful, it's just to somehow figure out where he would land id not for his extra curricular activities.

I think I have him a decent place, and ironically, it's the same as the forum does. And that's around 8th and in this group. Where a lot of disagreement comes is where does Lillee fit into said group.

 

[kyear2]

Just about everyone tampered, and anyone who doesn't admit this has some nationalistic blinders on. It may as well have been legal under the rules at that stage.

People get especially pissed with Pak are getting pissed cos they were especially good at it. I get it. I'm still pissed about the strength of the Aus batting at their peak, and how good India have been at home more recently.

Was it that they were especially good at it, or did it to a greater degree. In scope and extreme.

 

[Bolo.]

Was it that they were especially good at it, or did it to a greater degree. In scope and extreme.

Especially good about making it work for them. They understood the mechanics of reverse far before anyone else. And this point is not limited to tampering.

I don't have the knowledge to comment on degrees.

 

[subshakerz]

I would still acknowledge his skill.

To a question regarding a county game where he admittedly ****ed up the ball, his retort was that no one else manged to utilize it until he came back on.

While that was ridiculous to an extent it was also true.

You realise he acknowledged that county incident was wrong? He wasnt excusing it. That was the whole purpose for him to bring it up. It was his own confession.

But it's also one of the reasons I look at his away record more closely than even other ATGs.

Great thanks for acknowledging you use a double standard with him. Not that we didn't know it.

 

[subshakerz]

Was it that they were especially good at it, or did it to a greater degree. In scope and extreme.

If Maco lifted the seam every over once the ball wasn't new, what degree of offense is that?

If Lawson used his sunscreen on the ball or a sweet with the saliva, how big an offense is that?

 

[kyear2]

What what a rant.

You never actually addressed Jarrod's points.

WI were that dominant that the Anglosphere had to give them credit. Pakistan weren't at that level of prominence yet and only really by the end of Imran's career did they get there.

Hadlee is a better bowler than Imran so no issue with the rating.

Jarrod already admitted everyone knew who Imran was but he was seen more because of the glamor and underrated.

He and Hadlee werent given their full dues because their wasn't a media complex attached to them as cricketers. You have previously admitted as much about Hadlee the bowler why not Imran?

About captaincy, you are relying on some no-name interviewers' opinions? Jarrod has already stated he considers Imran a great captain As for Wasim and Waqar, they wouldn't even be great bowlers in the first place if Imran wasn't there, that's his legacy despite your bitterness.

Imran was excellent away from home. Best in WI, best in WSC. Didn't need home umpires who actually helped all teams at the time.

Next time you are going to rant actually address the substance of the argument.

There's nothing I said that wasn't true.

As I also said, I don't doubt he wasn't a great player.

But that excuse is bullshit. There's the pretense that the cricket community could only pay attention to one team at a time? Wasim had no issues getting attention, neither did Waqar. Everyone knew of Javed.

Pakistan was the 2nd best team, especially at home, during that era and he was way more high profile than Hadlee. The fact alone that one of the features of the era were the big 4 all rounders brought even more attention to all of them.

You're just looking for excuses now.

 

[subshakerz]

There's nothing I said that wasn't true.

As I also said, I don't doubt he wasn't a great player.

But that excuse is bullshit. There's the pretense that the cricket community could only pay attention to one team at a time? Wasim had no issues getting attention, neither did Waqar. Everyone knew of Javed.

Pakistan was the 2nd best team, especially at home, during that era and he was way more high profile than Hadlee. The fact alone that one of the features of the era were the big 4 all rounders brought even more attention to all of them.

You're just looking for excuses now.

It's not just my argument, Kimber said the same thing. Pak and NZ went under the radar in the 80s and Pakistan only started getting their real dues as a top tier team in the early 90s. You think anyone in the Anglosphere cared how strong Pakistan were at home?

It's the same reason Hadlee is underrated. We all know if Hadlee was an Australian or Englishman, he would be rated far higher, maybe even the best pacer ever. Yet he hardly makes any ATG XI. It's not like pundits don't know he existed, it's just that his rep didn't get the boost in the 80s, same with Imran. Botham's antics overshadowed them both to a degree. You and I both know that's true.

If Imran had been an Aussie or Englishman in the 80s, he would have been put on Sobers level, a confirmed next best after Bradman and Sobers. I have zero doubts about this.

It's only that when it comes to Imran, you have sour grapes.

 

[kyear2]

It's not just my argument, Kimber said the same thing. Pak and NZ went under the radar in the 80s and Pakistan only started getting their real dues as a top tier team in the early 90s. You think anyone in the Anglosphere cared how strong Pakistan were at home?

It's the same reason Hadlee is underrated. We all know if Hadlee was an Australian or Englishman, he would be rated far higher, maybe even the best pacer ever. Yet he hardly makes any ATG XI. It's not like pundits don't know he existed, it's just that his rep didn't get the boost in the 80s, same with Imran. Botham's antics overshadowed them both to a degree. You and I both know that's true.

If Imran had been an Aussie or Englishman in the 80s, he would have been put on Sobers level, a confirmed next best after Bradman and Sobers. I have zero doubts about this.

It's only that when it comes to Imran, you have sour grapes.

This is my problem with you. You argue out of both sides of your mouth.

I raised that exact point to you a few months ago and you seriously denied it. I said that Imran wasn't unanimously seen as the best all rounder of the big 4, and that in the beginning Botham was clearly seen (correctly I might add) as the best. And for some they were collectively seen as the big 4. You strenuously argued against that saying that he was unanimously seen as the best all rounder of his era.

But now because it suits your purpose, he was greatly under appreciated.

First Hadlee, to say he would have been rated much higher, I don't know. He's almost unanimously rated as a top 3 or 4 fast bowler of all time. Don't know what's much higher. If you mean as an overall cricketer? That process is a mess and after Bradman and Sobers is basically a free for all.

Re your comment that if Imran was British or Australian that he would have been unanimously rated next to Sobers and Bradman, I disagree and here's why.

As over rated as Warne is (partially due to being Aussie and his personality) even he doesn't reach that lofty perch. And he (and Murali) and so far above any possible peers in a way that Imran just isn't, and is rated ahead of Imran as a bowler anyways.

McGrath is arguably the greatest bowler ever, and an Aussie and lead arguably the greatest team ever to that position, and he's not nearly rated there.

Viv wasn't Aussie or British, the team wasn't good, had just been destroyed by Australia, and he managed to emerge. Not because of the team, actually the team first managed to emerge and get attention because of him.

Wasim is ridiculously highly rated as a Pakistani, partially because of his odi exploits and a lot because of his skill.

And no, Imran was never going to get to that place, even now in retrospect, and that because the things that you glibly pass over and ignore, was greatly noticed while he was playing. The tampering was an issue, the home umpiring was an issue. And this is going to sound ridiculous to you, but even if they weren't, they deserve to be. It impacted Javed's legacy a bit as well.

And the last point, that I know you disagree with. Is it possibly that there just isn't anyone on Bradman's and Sobers's level?

In a head to head when Cricinfo selected their team, the vote split between the two of them was 50 - 0. That included the Pakistani selectors. I also know you think that's an awful way of saying who's better, but there it is...

And you're acting like Sobers came from cricketing royalty. Do you want to compare their backgrounds? And he definitely wasn't British or Australian, and his teams never dominated either.

Re the sour grapes thing. I don't hate the man, you and your friends want to believe I do because I see him differently from you. Your vitriol against Lara is far more constant and unrelenting.
I've said that the final spot in my XI is between him and Wasim and it comes down between Wasim's versatility, old ball skills (and ability to move the ball both ways) against Imran's batting. I've also said that if Gilly was swapped for Knott (something that I'm giving some though to), that Imran then gets in. Not like you that doesn't think Sachin and BCL shouldn't be spoken of in the same breath.
And you know what, the last time we did an AT vote for the attack, Wasim and Imran literally had the same amount of votes, so it's not like it's a isolated idea only held by me.

But no, I don't think there's a clear cut no. 3, actually neither do you, as you've said multiple times. And yes, there's quite a few candidates for the spot, and he's definitely one of them.

 

[Coronis]

I’m pretty sure @kyear2 wins this round.

Waiting for the rest of the peer ratings to confirm.

 

[subshakerz]

Oh God another essay.

This is my problem with you. You argue out of both sides of your mouth.

I raised that exact point to you a few months ago and you seriously denied it. I said that Imran wasn't unanimously seen as the best all rounder of the big 4, and that in the beginning Botham was clearly seen (correctly I might add) as the best. And for some they were collectively seen as the big 4. You strenuously argued against that saying that he was unanimously seen as the best all rounder of his era.


But now because it suits your purpose, he was greatly under appreciated.

It's not that hard to understand.

Was he seen as generally the best of the four ARs by career end? Yes because he clearly was. Also a top 10 cricketer.

Was he still underrated given his achievements? Yes. Would he have been rated higher if he was an Englishman or Aussie? Yes.

First Hadlee, to say he would have been rated much higher, I don't know. He's almost unanimously rated as a top 3 or 4 fast bowler of all time. Don't know what's much higher. If you mean as an overall cricketer? That process is a mess and after Bradman and Sobers is basically a free for all.

No Hadlee is not rated that high at all. You're just lying now. He hardly appears in ATG XIs or top ten lists. Can you imagine if he was an Englishman?

Re your comment that if Imran was British or Australian that he would have been unanimously rated next to Sobers and Bradman, I disagree and here's why.

As over rated as Warne is (partially due to being Aussie and his personality) even he doesn't reach that lofty perch. And he (and Murali) and so far above any possible peers in a way that Imran just isn't, and is rated ahead of Imran as a bowler anyways.

McGrath is arguably the greatest bowler ever, and an Aussie and lead arguably the greatest team ever to that position, and he's not nearly rated there.

Viv wasn't Aussie or British, the team wasn't good, had just been destroyed by Australia, and he managed to emerge. Not because of the team, actually the team first managed to emerge and get attention because of him.

Wasim is ridiculously highly rated as a Pakistani, partially because of his odi exploits and a lot because of his skill.

And no, Imran was never going to get to that place, even now in retrospect, and that because the things that you glibly pass over and ignore, was greatly noticed while he was playing. The tampering was an issue, the home umpiring was an issue. And this is going to sound ridiculous to you, but even if they weren't, they deserve to be. It impacted Javed's legacy a bit as well.

And the last point, that I know you disagree with. Is it possibly that there just isn't anyone on Bradman's and Sobers's level?

In a head to head when Cricinfo selected their team, the vote split between the two of them was 50 - 0. That included the Pakistani selectors. I also know you think that's an awful way of saying who's better, but there it is...

And you're acting like Sobers came from cricketing royalty. Do you want to compare their backgrounds? And he definitely wasn't British or Australian, and his teams never dominated either.

Re the sour grapes thing. I don't hate the man, you and your friends want to believe I do because I see him differently from you. Your vitriol against Lara is far more constant and unrelenting.
I've said that the final spot in my XI is between him and Wasim and it comes down between Wasim's versatility, old ball skills (and ability to move the ball both ways) against Imran's batting. I've also said that if Gilly was swapped for Knott (something that I'm giving some though to), that Imran then gets in. Not like you that doesn't think Sachin and BCL shouldn't be spoken of in the same breath.
And you know what, the last time we did an AT vote for the attack, Wasim and Imran literally had the same amount of votes, so it's not like it's a isolated idea only held by me.

But no, I don't think there's a clear cut no. 3, actually neither do you, as you've said multiple times. And yes, there's quite a few candidates for the spot, and he's definitely one of them.

Sobers isn't Bradman level.

Yes, Imran would have been bracketed with Sobers if he was born in the Anglospere with his achievements. Just look at the overrating Botham and Warne get and imagine someone who achieved notably more. The entire world would have memorized '10 years of averaging 50 with the bat and 19 with the ball' like Bradman's average.

An ATG pacer, great captain plus a bat? English press would have had a field day.

The rest you wrote is just the same irrelevant arguments you bring to justify your bias.

 

[kyear2]

Oh God another essay.



It's not that hard to understand.

Was he seen as generally the best of the four ARs by career end? Yes because he clearly was. Also a top 10 cricketer.

Was he still underrated given his achievements? Yes. Would he have been rated higher if he was an Englishman or Aussie? Yes.


No Hadlee is not rated that high at all. You're just lying now. He hardly appears in ATG XIs or top ten lists. Can you imagine if he was an Englishman?


Sobers isn't Bradman level.

Yes, Imran would have been bracketed with Sobers if he was born in the Anglospere with his achievements. Just look at the overrating Botham and Warne get and imagine someone who achieved notably more. The entire world would have memorized '10 years of averaging 50 with the bat and 19 with the ball' like Bradman's average.

An ATG pacer, great captain plus a bat? English press would have had a field day.

The rest you wrote is just the same irrelevant arguments you bring to justify your bias.

And that belief is based on what? Your wishing it to be so?

Hadlee doesn't appear in XI'a as it's competitive. Warne, Marshall and Wasim appear most of them, leaving one spot and quite a bit on worthy candidates.

And he does appear in lists, Hadlee is a very highly rated cricketer. And again, these top 10 lists are very subjective and vary quite a bit. But he's universally seen as a top tier bowler.

So why is it that Sobers got that positioning without being born in the Anglosphere? He wasn't born in either country, didn't play for a dominant team, he was just different.

Of the 4 all rounders, Imran wasn't the best bat, that distinction went to Botham, he wasn't even the best bowler, that went to Hadlee. He didn't combine the two skills together the most often, that too was Botham. Where in there would it automatically scream 3rd Greatest Player ever?
Yes at the end he would have edged out the others, but he wasn't even the best bowler of the era and everyone knew the batting average was soft.

Honest to God, it's just sad now. @peterhrt just a little while ago wrote to how Imran was seen as very much part of the establishment. Where he lived, was educated etc. I'll look for it for you.

The not being born in Australia or England rationale is ridiculous though.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Yes Wasim could do more with the ball, the others were more effective wicket takers.

No.
Its just he played longer.
Lack of fielding support and bowling from junk end also affected his stats.

 

[kyear2]

@subshakerz as I said, I would locate it for you.

Imran was educated at Oxford and is currently bidding to become chancellor of the University. He played most of his cricket in England, married a British billionaire's daughter, and wrote for The Times where he once produced a scathing review of Botham's autobiography.

He also cultivated relationships with members of the MCC hierarchy, which paid dividends when some of them backed his call for neutral umpires. Imran was a fully signed-up member of the English establishment, and any media bias regarding his cricketing abilities would have been in his favour. Even so, no English journalist would claim he was close to Sobers as an all-round cricketer, especially those who saw Sobers play.

 

[kyear2]

No.
Its just he played longer.
Lack of fielding support and bowling from junk end also affected his stats.

Yes he played longer, yes he didn't have the best catching (not that you rate it that important otherwise).

But bowling from the junk end? That's an excuse now?

 

[subshakerz]

And that belief is based on what? Your wishing it to be so?

Hadlee doesn't appear in XI'a as it's competitive. Warne, Marshall and Wasim appear most of them, leaving one spot and quite a bit on worthy candidates.

And he does appear in lists, Hadlee is a very highly rated cricketer. And again, these top 10 lists are very subjective and vary quite a bit. But he's universally seen as a top tier bowler.

Give me a ATG XI or top ten list that Hadlee appears in. Otherwise where is your evidence he is as highly rated as we know he was as a bowler

So why is it that Sobers got that positioning without being born in the Anglosphere? He wasn't born in either country, didn't play for a dominant team, he was just different.

Maybe it helped he wasn't born in an era of ARs therefore easier to stand out.

Of the 4 all rounders, Imran wasn't the best bat, that distinction went to Botham, he wasn't even the best bowler, that went to Hadlee. He didn't combine the two skills together the most often, that too was Botham. Where in there would it automatically scream 3rd Greatest Player ever?
Yes at the end he would have edged out the others, but he wasn't even the best bowler of the era and everyone knew the batting average was soft.

Honest to God, it's just sad now. @peterhrt just a little while ago wrote to how Imran was seen as very much part of the establishment. Where he lived, was educated etc. I'll look for it for you.

The not being born in Australia or England rationale is ridiculous though.

Imran would stand out more based on WI performances, WSC, captaincy and the greatest ever bowling peak plus the record of his last ten years. All of these are unique to him.

 

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz as I said, I would locate it for you.

Nobody is saying Imran wasnt known in the English press as this charismatic playboy figure.

It's funny most of the things he cites happened towards or after his retirement which is sort of our point when he got his full due. Pakistan was still backwaters in the early 80s when he was achieving his big stuff and It's not like English press cared what was happening there.