Quotas to be introduced for Proteas

[SeamUp]

I think you are under-estimating how the players feel after what happened in that world-cup SF selection. It will happen again now and easily be the last straw. If a decision has to come that either Faf or Morkel plays. How does the one that misses out feel ? How does AB feel ? Being boyhood friends with both ? That is not a positive situation.

Bavuma hasn't sealed his spot yet. What if he doesn't ? What about guys like Rossouw/Van Zyl/De Bruyn + others who should be getting opportunities next in line and they skip to Ramela who just isn't good enough. What if Rabada gets injured or goes through a lean patch which is understandable for one so young ? That will effect %'s

We in a tough sport here. Individual game within a team sport. It is not a game for the faint-hearted. Guys who have put years of runs and performances down domestically don't necessarily always step up to international level. In fact quite a few don't. But here we restricting ourselves to picking players on skin colour ?

Us as the normal cricket fan or former cricket players have jobs. It is not our responsibility to promote the game to other people. It is CSA and the government to fund that. Right now financially - CSA will start digging their own hole as well. It will get even worse.

 

[jimmy101]

The article I read on cricinfo today literally made my heart sink. I hope this quota system will be scrapped before too much damage is done. Both RSA and their little brother Zimbabwe could field quality teams if they were picked on merit alone. Policies such as these only detract from the hard work, skill and reputation of such players like Rabada, who will now surely become overworked.

 

[StephenZA]

I think you are under-estimating how the players feel after what happened in that world-cup SF selection. It will happen again now and easily be the last straw. If a decision has to come that either Faf or Morkel plays. How does the one that misses out feel ? How does AB feel ? Being boyhood friends with both ? That is not a positive situation.

Bavuma hasn't sealed his spot yet. What if he doesn't ? What about guys like Rossouw/Van Zyl/De Bruyn + others who should be getting opportunities next in line and they skip to Ramela who just isn't good enough. What if Rabada gets injured or goes through a lean patch which is understandable for one so young ? That will effect %'s

We in a tough sport here. Individual game within a team sport. It is not a game for the faint-hearted. Guys who have put years of runs and performances down domestically don't necessarily always step up to international level. In fact quite a few don't. But here we restricting ourselves to picking players on skin colour ?

Us as the normal cricket fan or former cricket players have jobs. It is not our responsibility to promote the game to other people. It is CSA and the government to fund that. Right now financially - CSA will start digging their own hole as well. It will get even worse.

As far as the SF goes.. no I don`t think they were happy, but that is because nobody knew why it happened.. but SA has always had a policy of the incumbent keeping his spot. Philander was always meant to be in the team until his injury. You could argue that Steyn was the one who should have been dropped. But what people immediately consider is that it was quota and blame it on such. I don`t think, with the way we played, that Abbott would have won us that match. But I agree that it created uncertainty in the team... now the team knows what it must achieve, thus they can accept it or not. I think that most of the international players understand... but we will see. At the lower franchise levels there will be unhappiness that must be sorted, but I think the cream will still rise to the top and SA will still have a great team, regardless of colour.

Bavuma has a way to go to absolutely cement his place in the team; However his place is far from under threat by either Roussouw or van Zyl whom have showed little when given opportunity. Bavuma would need not perform for 18 months for that to become a problem. And Duminy/Faf`s position are under far greater threat. De Bruyn for me is next in line. You talk about what happens if they skip to Ramela... well when they actually do that I will start the doom and gloom thread, but they have not done it yet. Rabada may go through a lean patch. Still can`t see many bowlers being better than him (regardless of colour) in the next 18 months. And ultimately these are targets across 3 formats that get looked at at the end of the year. Lets see what happens if we miss those targets first, before we throw our toys out of the cot.

And while I agree it is government and CSA responsibility to help fund these programs.... no matter how much funding is put into a program, without the concerted effort and help of the entire cricketing community and ex-players nothing will happen within the poorer communities and townships. I never said it was easy. I said it must be done for everybody to benefit in the long run.

 

[Marius]

As far as the SF goes.. no I don`t think they were happy, but that is because nobody knew why it happened.. but SA has always had a policy of the incumbent keeping his spot. Philander was always meant to be in the team until his injury. You could argue that Steyn was the one who should have been dropped. But what people immediately consider is that it was quota and blame it on such. I don`t think, with the way we played, that Abbott would have won us that match. But I agree that it created uncertainty in the team... now the team knows what it must achieve, thus they can accept it or not. I think that most of the international players understand... but we will see. At the lower franchise levels there will be unhappiness that must be sorted, but I think the cream will still rise to the top and SA will still have a great team, regardless of colour.

Bavuma has a way to go to absolutely cement his place in the team; However his place is far from under threat by either Roussouw or van Zyl whom have showed little when given opportunity. Bavuma would need not perform for 18 months for that to become a problem. And Duminy/Faf`s position are under far greater threat. De Bruyn for me is next in line. You talk about what happens if they skip to Ramela... well when they actually do that I will start the doom and gloom thread, but they have not done it yet. Rabada may go through a lean patch. Still can`t see many bowlers being better than him (regardless of colour) in the next 18 months. And ultimately these are targets across 3 formats that get looked at at the end of the year. Lets see what happens if we miss those targets first, before we throw our toys out of the cot.

And while I agree it is government and CSA responsibility to help fund these programs.... no matter how much funding is put into a program, without the concerted effort and help of the entire cricketing community and ex-players nothing will happen within the poorer communities and townships. I never said it was easy. I said it must be done for everybody to benefit in the long run.

Abbott was in the form of his life - who knows what would have happened if his overs had gone for 4.5 or 5 an over, compared to the eight an over (or whatever it was) that Vern went for?

Vern was the incumbent but surely in a WC semi you can ignore that rule, or at least pick hotses for courses?

 

[SeamUp]

As far as the SF goes.. no I don`t think they were happy, but that is because nobody knew why it happened.. but SA has always had a policy of the incumbent keeping his spot. Philander was always meant to be in the team until his injury. You could argue that Steyn was the one who should have been dropped. But what people immediately consider is that it was quota and blame it on such. I don`t think, with the way we played, that Abbott would have won us that match. But I agree that it created uncertainty in the team... now the team knows what it must achieve, thus they can accept it or not. I think that most of the international players understand... but we will see. At the lower franchise levels there will be unhappiness that must be sorted, but I think the cream will still rise to the top and SA will still have a great team, regardless of colour.

Bavuma has a way to go to absolutely cement his place in the team; However his place is far from under threat by either Roussouw or van Zyl whom have showed little when given opportunity. Bavuma would need not perform for 18 months for that to become a problem. And Duminy/Faf`s position are under far greater threat. De Bruyn for me is next in line. You talk about what happens if they skip to Ramela... well when they actually do that I will start the doom and gloom thread, but they have not done it yet. Rabada may go through a lean patch. Still can`t see many bowlers being better than him (regardless of colour) in the next 18 months. And ultimately these are targets across 3 formats that get looked at at the end of the year. Lets see what happens if we miss those targets first, before we throw our toys out of the cot.

And while I agree it is government and CSA responsibility to help fund these programs.... no matter how much funding is put into a program, without the concerted effort and help of the entire cricketing community and ex-players nothing will happen within the poorer communities and townships. I never said it was easy. I said it must be done for everybody to benefit in the long run.

It was a matter of principle , mate. The debacle was that turd who worked for the ICC said to Domingo there HAS to be 4 POC playing. The world is not a computer game. There are real human emotions and reactions. That whole situation was wrong no matter what way you look at and was a pre-cursor for what it is to become.

There is every possibility that Bavuma succeeds but if we lose a series and he keeps failing, just like any batsman in the team, his position will come under scrutiny.

On Rabada. He is a freak. But even a mis-managed freak can perform poorly no matter what his competition is. Physically we need to look after him and mentally we need to if he goes through a bad patch.

'Cricketing Community' - most clubbies go play cricket to enjoy their weekends and enjoy the game they love and then get back to work or study. They can only do so much in their spare time. I agree that money isn't everything and the passion is required but again CSA/government are people who need to hire these people to perform these roles as they will have the time to do this. So there it is CSA or the government that need to stand-up and stop window-dressing and get to the source of the problem and solve it.

But I do admire your optimism.

 

[Adders]

It is overestimated the ability and want of Fifa or IRB, (or most international sport structures) to interfere in sport structures within countries (pretty much ignored by IRB in SA rugby), they will not interfere in what is a politically tense difficult scenario like SA.

I am not happy about the quota system either, this is very much political pandering. However, CSA are asking for targets that are already being met and they are even allowing flexibility across the 3 formats, so you cold not expect better considering the political scenario. In one of the previous comments it was stated that blacks are not interested in cricket, that is a load of nonsense. Many blacks in SA love cricket but get little chance to actually play.

Now, I`m going to talk politics here...as a white South African I do not like the way I have been treated and/or made to feel. I think that the current ANC elite corruption and cronyism is destroying SA for all South Africans and hope that change happens soon, as there is more important issues than the Proteas cricket team going on in SA. However, whatever we feel, the Springboks and Proteas are symbols of South Africa, and when those symbols still have a majority of white players within the team (regardless of all other problems) 22 years after so called independence, it adds fuel to what is a problematic climate. SA demographics is ~79% black, ~12% coloured(mixed-race) and Asian, and ~8/9% White. I would also like a utopia where colour did not matter, however in SA it matters and nothing short term is going to change it, particularly while their is huge economic inequality and uncertainty.

I agree government could be doing more at a school level, I agree that CSA could be doing more at school and club levels. But (and this will not make me popular) I also accept and have seen that the white majority clubs who have facilities do not try and integrate black players into the club system, and can even make them feel unwelcome. There is little to no facilities in the townships and little help coming, Truth is we as the white population (in general, there is always exception) need to do more, even if it makes our life more difficult, we have to actively go out and help try integrate. And this goes beyond just cricket in SA, and if we do not this country will implode.

But like all people all over the world, it is easier to sit and complain about things and blame everybody else for misfortune, rather than going out and actively try change things for the betterment of everybody in the long run. And I am as guilty of this as anybody.

Having said all this I think that cricket is doing better than rugby (and most other sports) with regards to transformation, I also think that this is not the end of cricket in SA (been hearing that for 20 odd years) and I think SA will continue to produce quality cricketers who will continue to play for SA. I think their needs to be a more active effort to recruit and help back players in SA and maybe just maybe, sooner rather than later these discussions will no longer be necessary.

Sensational post and thank you so much for giving us this insight.

 

[Marius]

It was a matter of principle , mate. The debacle was that turd who worked for the ICC said to Domingo there HAS to be 4 POC playing. The world is not a computer game. There are real human emotions and reactions. That whole situation was wrong no matter what way you look at and was a pre-cursor for what it is to become.

There is every possibility that Bavuma succeeds but if we lose a series and he keeps failing, just like any batsman in the team, his position will come under scrutiny.

On Rabada. He is a freak. But even a mis-managed freak can perform poorly no matter what his competition is. Physically we need to look after him and mentally we need to if he goes through a bad patch.

'Cricketing Community' - most clubbies go play cricket to enjoy their weekends and enjoy the game they love and then get back to work or study. They can only do so much in their spare time. I agree that money isn't everything and the passion is required but again CSA/government are people who need to hire these people to perform these roles as they will have the time to do this. So there it is CSA or the government that need to stand-up and stop window-dressing and get to the source of the problem and solve it.

But I do admire your optimism.

That's it - it's not the job of club cricketers to go and try 'transform' the game. Most club players want to have a net once a week, a run around on a Saturday or Sunday, and couple of beers afterwards. Not many have the time or inclination to go coach in deprived areas etc. Not that white club cricketers shouldn't make an effort to be aware of their privilege or not try to make players from different cultural backgrounds welcome in the club, but it is not the job of our club cricketers to develop cricket infrastructure etc. in deprived areas.

That said clubs can perhaps do more, well-resourced clubs can possibly partner with clubs from poorer areas, or donate equipment etc. But I don't think the responsibility should lie with them, solely or in part.

 

[StephenZA]

Abbott was in the form of his life - who knows what would have happened if his overs had gone for 4.5 or 5 an over, compared to the eight an over (or whatever it was) that Vern went for?

Vern was the incumbent but surely in a WC semi you can ignore that rule, or at least pick hotses for courses?

Philander, Morkel went for 6.5... Steyn went for 8.6, and had a bad tournament throughout. But there would have been pitch forks in the streets if Philander had replaced Steyn rather than Abbott.

But I do admire your optimism.

I am not so much optimistic but I have been hearing of the demise of SA cricket for 20+ years, Amla, Ntini etc etc... and that has not come to fruition. As I said when Ramela gets picked for the SA team for poor quota reasons I will start the doom, gloom thread myself... has not happened yet.

That's it - it's not the job of club cricketers to go and try 'transform' the game. Most club players want to have a net once a week, a run around on a Saturday or Sunday, and couple of beers afterwards. Not many have the time or inclination to go coach in deprived areas etc. Not that white club cricketers shouldn't make an effort to be aware of their privilege or not try to make players from different cultural backgrounds welcome in the club, but it is not the job of our club cricketers to develop cricket infrastructure etc. in deprived areas.

That said clubs can perhaps do more, well-resourced clubs can possibly partner with clubs from poorer areas, or donate equipment etc. But I don't think the responsibility should lie with them, solely or in part.

I am not absolving CSA or government of anything. But people think in terms of coaching and facilities, but how about just helping bus in a few kids from the rural areas to use the facilities once a week? Like you say twin with another club or even school in deprived area... little things go a long way. Yes it may cost a bit, and maybe we need to give up a bit of our time. But the alternative is a far greater problem. Now I say this as someone who never had the ability to play, and has not played much since high school, I just love the game. My little contributions, not to cricket, come out from other parts of my life, so I judge nobody because I am no better than most.. but I do recognize we all need to try a little or else no progress will be made.

 

[Marius]

Philander, Morkel went for 6.5... Steyn went for 8.6, and had a bad tournament throughout. But there would have been pitch forks in the streets if Philander had replaced Steyn rather than Abbott.

I am not so much optimistic but I have been hearing of the demise of SA cricket for 20+ years, Amla, Ntini etc etc... and that has not come to fruition. As I said when Ramela gets picked for the SA team for poor quota reasons I will start the doom, gloom thread myself... has not happened yet.

I am not absolving CSA or government of anything. But people think in terms of coaching and facilities, but how about just helping bus in a few kids from the rural areas to use the facilities once a week? Like you say twin with another club or even school in deprived area... little things go a long way. Yes it may cost a bit, and maybe we need to give up a bit of our time. But the alternative is a far greater problem. Now I say this as someone who never had the ability to play, and has not played much since high school, I just love the game. My little contributions, not to cricket, come out from other parts of my life, so I judge nobody because I am no better than most.. but I do recognize we all need to try a little or else no progress will be made.

At the end of the day, Steyn lost us that game. The rain delay also probably didn't help.

I think overall, we're probably broadly in agreement on the other issues.

 

[Zinzan]

One positive of this thread is seeing a few South African fans in dialogue, something we don't see enough of on CW.

 

[91Jmay]

One positive of this thread is seeing a few South African fans in dialogue, something we don't see enough of on CW.

To be fair, they sit so far apart in the stadium's it is hard to chat

 

[StephenZA]

To be fair, they sit so far apart in the stadium's it is hard to chat

Nah... we all just sitting on the grass enjoying the sun... you know the bright yellow thing in the sky. You see it in England occasionally....

 

[91Jmay]

Not exactly the best time to mention the weather after the last series is it...

 

[TheJammyTurtle]

So 6 players of colour need to be picked on average with 2 black Africans...wonder if CSA will change their arm in dead rubbers and against the likes of Bangladesh,Zimbabwe and associates and try and pick 9 or 10 players in colour to try and give themselves a bit of breathing room for the bigger games?

 

[StephenZA]

So 6 players of colour need to be picked on average with 2 black Africans...wonder if CSA will change their arm in dead rubbers and against the likes of Bangladesh,Zimbabwe and associates and try and pick 9 or 10 players in colour to try and give themselves a bit of breathing room for the bigger games?

They have been warned against this, getting to the numbers by trickery will not pass.... but you may find that LO will have more players of colour playing as there is currently greater available deserving players in those formats than the test team. What I can see happening is that there will be times of only 4/5 players of colour in test team (e.g.. Morkel replaces Piedt in Perth), but as many as 7/8 players of colour in LO team. Biggest issue is going to be Rabada, I really think he needs to be managed well and not bowled into the ground.

 

[Shady Slim]

ok agree with grump or not you have to admit quoteas is pretty damn good

 

[SeamUp]

Just trying to look where we lose players going forward. Definitely will be a talent drain. As a white-spinner - start packing your bags. Right now that puts Simon Harmer into the shop window. George Linde has serious potential but probably just grateful he can get regular chances with Cobras. Young coloured/Asian spinners could get their chance but only if Piedt/Tahir/Shamsi aren't in the mix so that includes Maharaj,Subrayen,Fortuin.


WHITE CRICKETERS

Test cricket starter or crucial player.

ELGAR (29)
COOK (34)
FAF (32)
AB (32)
DE KOCK (24)
MORKEL (32)
STEYN (33)

There will be a player or two missing out for the test team there. Players will not be happy. Huge players for us will not be happy.

On the Fringes of selection (25+)/ODI squads

VAN ZYL (29)
ROSSOUW (27)
MILLER (27)
MORRIS (29)
PRETORIUS (27)
ABBOTT (29)
VILJOEN (27)

Rossouw, Miller, Morris, Abbott, Viljoen have all been chased by the IPL/ T20's around the world/County cricket. I'm not even including Wiese and De Lange above who have been too. van Zyl got another chance in the recent test but looked uncomfortable which is rather odd as when in flow is a million dollars to watch. Pressure ? Not in the best touch ? They still rate Rossouw highly & know what his potential ceiling is & was called to train with the test squad v NZL to prep for limited overs. Miller came off a very good Quadrangular in Australia where he was the leading run-scorer and did what was asked of him like de Kock a little while ago. Pretorius had his first call-up to the SA 'A' team and did alright with the ball. Chief selector Zondi mentioned his name but Phehlukwayo has a far greater ceiling. Morris' future like Parnell is probably in doubt with Phehlukwayo going to be pushed ahead of schedule. I can see Abbott and Viljoen eventually signing Kolpaks.

On fringe of selection (sub 25) and the future

DE BRUYN (24)
MARKRAM (22)
MULDER (18)
SAVAGE (23)
OLIVIER (24)
DUPAVILLON (22)

Time is on their side but there will come a time when questions will be asked for them. For one or two it could be sooner than we think. With the players ahead of them and no pathway. No point even talking about their talents at this moment.



COLOURED/ASIAN PLAYERS


Test cricket starter or crucial player.

AMLA (33)
DUMINY (32)
PHILANDER (31)
PIEDT (26)
TAHIR (37)

Amla is soon the be king after stepping down on forced captaincy. Another failed move by CSA that mentally effected one of our cricket players. Duminy has been on last chance saloon for years but survives just everytime. Philander only just returned & question marks whether his superiority is on all surfaces but can do a job mostly. Piedt is test incumbent & Tahir will probably carry on playing cricket till he is 45.


On the Fringes of selection (25+)/ODI squads

BEHARDIEN (33)
ADAMS (32)
SHAMSI (26)
PARNELL (27)
PATERSON (27)

Behardien is nothing great but kept position due to balance & his one knock in 10 when we need guys to regularly clear the rope in his position. Adams had a good 'A' tour and a late bloomer. Only Miller & De Bruyn scored more runs than him and fulfilled the finisher role well with his ability to go big when required. Shamsi probably will be kept out by Phangiso moving forward but can be a match-winner. Possibly more T20 tournaments and County cricket for him ? Paterson probably gets in there just. He runs in all day but probably doesn't have enough to trouble the best batsman. Not even going to include Reeza Hendricks or Beuran Hednricks here. Can't buy a run or a wicket at the moment.


On fringe of selection (sub 25) and the future

HAMZA (21)
SMITH (22)
GALIEM (19)

Seen Smith bat. Hugely exciting. Probably question marks over the longer version but possibly his eye is that good it doesn't matter & has a solid enough defensive techniue. Talk that he can be an all-rounder. Hamza is an accumulator and is just hungry for runs. Before you know it he is on 30,40,50, Galiem probably needs to put more work in and just out of school but has a high ceiling as an all-rounder.


BLACK-AFRICAN CRICKETERS

Crucial players

BAVUMA (26)
PHANGISO (32)
PHEHLUKWAYO (20)
RABADA (21)

Two test 'incumbents' - Phangiso will have to play more leaving Tahir out ? He won't win us games & there will be games he will smacked out the park. Phehulwayo will be pushed before his time. But has exciting potential.

Can see the following getting selected.

RAMELA (28)
ZONDO (26)
LEIE (30)
NGIDI(20)

Ramela will get test chances. Zondo limited overs chances. Neither really good enough. Leie will come back into the mix with not really standing out. Ngidi has raw potential but so much work to do. But guys like Moreki, Magala, Shezi, Siboto are cannon-fodder so you would think in the long-run he has more chance. There is a young batting talent MAKWETU (17) who we could hear more about in the coming years.

 

[Shady Slim]

i asked this before but iirc didn't get an answer... where is it parnell gets his "colour" from?

 

[SeamUp]

i asked this before but iirc didn't get an answer... where is it parnell gets his "colour" from?

His parents are both mixed-race. Comes from a well-known coloured community called Gelvondale in Port Elizabeth that has produced Ashwell Prince, Alviro Petersen, Robin Peterson, Garnett Kruger

 

[Marius]

They have been warned against this, getting to the numbers by trickery will not pass.... but you may find that LO will have more players of colour playing as there is currently greater available deserving players in those formats than the test team. What I can see happening is that there will be times of only 4/5 players of colour in test team (e.g.. Morkel replaces Piedt in Perth), but as many as 7/8 players of colour in LO team. Biggest issue is going to be Rabada, I really think he needs to be managed well and not bowled into the ground.

But that's ridiculous - Rabada rolls his ankle of the morning of a Test match, that means you're stuffed.

I haven't seen anyone be 'warned' about 'trickery' either to be honest. CSA has explicitly said that it will be done over the average of the season, across all formats, giving some leeway depending on what is needed for a particular match.