Pontings captaincy

[howardj]

Well, we're certainly been excelling in that regard.

Surely though, the buck stops at the coach for basic fielding skills. Bob Simpson believed it to be of almost paramount importance - there's no point having the bowlers inducing false shots all over the place if we can't make dismissals out of them.

Buchanan has totally lost me, with his getting players to write essays and all this mental psyching out of opponents. He seems to think he is some type of guru, on the cutting-edge of cricket. In reality, I think he is someone who has ridden on the coat-tails of some very talented cricketers. He just seems to elevate the mental side of the game, way beyond its true worth. For instance, instead of blaming the poor catching on lack of practice, he blamed it on the fact that, mentally, Australia may have been too keen to make an impression on the game! I mean, get back to planet earth. Australia's not getting done in this series because of anything mental, rather it's because of things like reverse-swing; catching etc. In other words, physical things that the coach should be helping players with.

 

[simmy]

I hope u were being sarcastic, cause to suggest the guy with the best captaincy record in both tests and one dayers is hopeless. Well........

Captaincy records mean nothing.
I could captain that side and win!

Well not anymore as they have been fairly useless this tour.

 

[sledger]

I hope u were being sarcastic, cause to suggest the guy with the best captaincy record in both tests and one dayers is hopeless. Well........

with the players hes had at his disposal if he didnt then he really would be awful.

 

[Burpey]

I hope u were being sarcastic, cause to suggest the guy with the best captaincy record in both tests and one dayers is hopeless. Well........

I did exaggerate and by no means want to offend you personally

But, I do think his captaincy isn't great and has a good record due to the sheer brilliance of players around him and lacklustre opposition. Btw, stats don't always tell the true story

 

[sledger]

i agree burkey, you summed that up very nicely.

 

[marc71178]

I hope u were being sarcastic, cause to suggest the guy with the best captaincy record in both tests and one dayers is hopeless. Well........

Which of course had nothing to do with having a great team against precious little strong opposition...

 

[King_Ponting]

one could claim india also have a great team........ Meaning soruv is an extremely poor captain.

 

[Sanz]

Err One test loss and we are questioning both Captain's and Coach's skills ?? How about giving little credit to the opposition ? Did Steve Waugh/Taylor ever faced and english team this good ? IMO steve Waugh was a pretty ordinary captain as well just like Ponting and I dont thinke he(as captain) would have done any better If he were the captain.

 

[Sanz]

one could claim india also have a great team........ Meaning soruv is an extremely poor captain.

India is a great batting team, but their non-spin bowling is as good as Bangladesh. Beside I dont think Ponting is better than Sourav as a captain

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

IMO steve Waugh was a pretty ordinary captain as well just like Ponting and I dont thinke he(as captain) would have done any better If he were the captain.

Well... Steve Waugh wasn't the greatest captain ever or anything, but he was a good leader and had his own distinctive style and was always pushing the game along. One of the main problems with Ponting as a captain is that he just runs out of ideas and lets the game drift, which is one thing you could never accuse Waugh of. I think Waugh would definately be doing a better job, although how much better is anyone's guess.

Either way, I wish Taylor was still in charge.

 

[luckyeddie]

that doesn't explain the loss of the killer instinct. Dropping catches are a byproduct of the lack of intensity

Quite the opposite.

England shelled an awful lot at Lord's, and people then were suggesting that they were too tight, too intense, too fired up.

 

[marc71178]

one could claim india also have a great team........ Meaning soruv is an extremely poor captain.

They don't have a bowling attack worthy of the name.

That's half a team.

 

[tooextracool]

i cant believe that anyone in their right mind can rate steve waugh 'highly' as a captain. he had good leadership qualities yes, but if you've never seen waugh run out of ideas and have no clue what to do in certain situations, then i suggest you watch the india tour in 03/04, or go back to the VB series in 01, or even every time klusener came into bat. if ricky ponting has benefitted from the efforts put into the side by steve waugh, then steve waugh benefitted even further from the influence that mark taylor had on the australian side.

 

[Slow Love™]

Err One test loss and we are questioning both Captain's and Coach's skills ?? How about giving little credit to the opposition ? Did Steve Waugh/Taylor ever faced and english team this good ? IMO steve Waugh was a pretty ordinary captain as well just like Ponting and I dont thinke he(as captain) would have done any better If he were the captain.

Well, I actually think that Waugh was a decent captain, and yes, I would say he was superior to Ponting, so I guess our opinions are different in that regard. But given that you've said that you think Ponting is pretty ordinary, I think it's fair enough that he's open to some criticism (and do I think plenty of the criticisms in this thread are fairly substantive). And it's not as if many of us haven't given a LOT of credit to England for their ability and effort this series - but there have certainly been plenty of English supporters vocal regarding Ponting's captaincy this series. I don't think they're exactly looking to make excuses for their own victory, so maybe, just maybe, there's something to it all.

As far as Buchanan goes, I have felt for a long time that he's perhaps cruised because he's been in charge of a group of world-beaters. It seems to me that almost everytime he opens his mouth he says something stupid, and there's been a definite decline in our fielding and catching skills under his tenure. Unless the coach is accountable for nothing whatsoever, surely the subject of his coaching methods/talents can be brought up.

In a way I'm reminded of Alan Joyce's tenure at Hawthorn in Aussie football in the 80's/90's. He was actually a pretty diabolical coach who the players barely tolerated, but he took over the position (he was previously football manager with next to no coaching experience) inherited a great outfit from Alan Jeans and won two flags his first two years (and a great reputation as a result). When the personnel declined and players aged, his ineptness was exposed, and his subsequent move to Footscray only clarified this. Which is not to say that Buchanan's at the same level of incompetence, but I have frequently wondered whether somebody else might bring more to the table way previous to this series.

 

[aussie]

i cant believe that anyone in their right mind can rate steve waugh 'highly' as a captain. he had good leadership qualities yes, but if you've never seen waugh run out of ideas and have no clue what to do in certain situations, then i suggest you watch the india tour in 03/04, or go back to the VB series in 01, or even every time klusener came into bat. if ricky ponting has benefitted from the efforts put into the side by steve waugh, then steve waugh benefitted even further from the influence that mark taylor had on the australian side.

yea i agree totally TEC, because Big Waugh had a great bowling attack he looked such a superb skipper that his last test series againts India showd that he wasn' that great after all & aslo has you pointed out the 2001 VB series. Well isn't that a strange coincidence in both Waugh's last series has TEST & ODI skipper he showed that he wasn't such a superb leader after all

Allan Border & Mark Taylor were top class skippers for sure

 

[Slow Love™]

i cant believe that anyone in their right mind can rate steve waugh 'highly' as a captain. he had good leadership qualities yes, but if you've never seen waugh run out of ideas and have no clue what to do in certain situations, then i suggest you watch the india tour in 03/04, or go back to the VB series in 01, or even every time klusener came into bat. if ricky ponting has benefitted from the efforts put into the side by steve waugh, then steve waugh benefitted even further from the influence that mark taylor had on the australian side.

I wouldn't rate him as highly as Taylor, but I'd certainly rate him more highly than Ponting. You wouldn't? And it's a separate issue, but I also think too little is made of the respect Waugh had in the side, and his own performances in having that side built around him from being fairly impotent to world-beaters (and the influence his support and faith in particular players had in them reaching their potential). And if anybody had balls of steel when the team was against the wall and battling their way into a match (or saving it), it was Waugh.

And yes, every captain has some period where they run out of ideas. Waugh's tended to occur when his bowlers failed and he was on the receiving end of some absolutely memorable and game-turning knocks, or on tracks that were very bat-friendly (against India at home in 03/04 being a good example, being without his two top bowlers and having Lee in such terrible form). In general, his handling of his bowlers was actually very good, and he gave off the vibe that he knew what he was doing. He also seemed to react to events in front of him more. Certainly, we didn't require a rush of senior players to defend him in the press and insist that he was consulting with them as often as possible, and they were helping in every way they could.

And as someone who has watched Aussie cricket since the early 80's, I'm very surprised by the elevation of Border's captaincy over time. He was a great guy and you'd have him bat for your life, but nobody I knew at the time rated him incredibly highly - including himself. Of recent captains, I would rate Taylor highest, then Waugh, then Border, then Ponting. It's weird how fashions and fads change these perceptions well after their time though. Waugh seems to be ripped apart constantly since his retirement, and Border's on his way to becoming a god of captains. Strange to watch.

 

[tooextracool]

I wouldn't rate him as highly as Taylor, but I'd certainly rate him more highly than Ponting. You wouldn't? And it's a separate issue, but I also think too little is made of the respect Waugh had in the side, and his own performances in having that side built around him from being fairly impotent to world-beaters (and the influence his support and faith in particular players had in them reaching their potential). And if anybody had balls of steel when the team was against the wall and battling their way into a match (or saving it), it was Waugh.

And yes, every captain has some period where they run out of ideas. Waugh's tended to occur when his bowlers failed and he was on the receiving end of some absolutely memorable and game-turning knocks, or on tracks that were very bat-friendly (against India at home in 03/04 being a good example, being without his two top bowlers and having Lee in such terrible form). In general, his handling of his bowlers was actually very good, and he gave off the vibe that he knew what he was doing. He also seemed to react to events in front of him more. Certainly, we didn't require a rush of senior players to defend him in the press and insist that he was consulting with them as often as possible, and they were helping in every way they could.

with regards to whos the better captain, ponting or waugh, i'll leave it as undecided and wait to see how pontings captaincy goes from here. ATM its hard to give ponting a particular grade as captain, because i've seen him make some absolutely outstanding decisions in the field before, and then seen him make an absolute mockery of himself and put england into bat at edgbaston. i think how australia retaliate in the next test match will give a better indication of pontings leadership qualities. as far as waugh is concerned i firmly believe that if anything he benefitted from having a better all-round side, with better batsman(especially his own batting skills). but when it came to on field decisions he was nothing more than mediocre.

 

[crickhowell]

i think TWC summed it up pretty well. "Vaughan is a leader but Ponting is the most talented of a supremely telented side and therefore captain." It's a bit like what happens in kids cricket really.

 

[Sanz]

It's weird how fashions and fads change these perceptions well after their time though. Waugh seems to be ripped apart constantly since his retirement, and Border's on his way to becoming a god of captains. Strange to watch.

I think Steve Waugh was a better player than Border but as captain he was no where near. Border took over the worst Aussie team and made them World Champions. Australia are still reaping the benefits of the players drafted by him(First as captain then as selector).

Steve Waugh inherited a great team, what has he left for the future ? Under him Aussie were the worst behaved team in the world. I haven't watched him much except against India and to be frank I wasn't impressed and I dont think he was better than Ponting.

 

[marc71178]

Steve Waugh inherited a great team, what has he left for the future ?

How can Waugh be blamed if there's not the replacements coming through?