Ponting is the biggest choker of them all !

[Deja moo]

Not always. The Natwest Series this year showed the dangers of batting first on a damp wicket early in the day. After the innings, it invariably flattened out into a batting paradise. Day matches in the subcontinent usually produce the same result.

I should have made myself clear mate. I was talking tests there.

 

[Jono]

I disagree to Deja's theory that Ponting and Tendulkar are chokers in ODIs and Tendulkar, Lara and S Waugh are/were chokers in tests based on their chasing records in ODIs and their 3rd and 4th innings averages in tests, though the idea of a deficiency in their game isn't impossible. Choking though, far from it IMO. As Slow_Love (I believe it was him, to lazy to scroll up) pointed out, a failure isn't choking, or not in my opinion anyway. If Tendulkar or Waugh come in at 2/15 chasing 480 to win (would likely happen to Tendulkar much more to Waugh considering how dominant Australia were for most of Waugh's career, or at least a large part of it) and receive an absolute corker of a ball going out for single digits, they didn't choke. Similarly if they walk in at 2/40 needing 150 to win, I wouldn't necessarily say they were under more pressure than Tendulkar/Waugh coming in at 2/40 in the first innings.

That doesn't mean I completely dismiss what Deja Moo says, because there IS something in the fact, and I'm talking ODIs here, that players like Inzy, Kallis and Dravid average almost 50 when chasing big targets but the more attacking batsman such as Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar average significantly less. I don't believe its got anything to do with choking, its got more to do with the way the batsman plays. If I presented someone with 2 groups of 3 batsman, one including Ponting, Lara and Sachin and one including Dravid, Inzy and Kallis to tell me the difference between the groups, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist (or a cricket scientist in this case ) to be able to answer that question correctly.

When I first brought the link to CricketWeb it was more to do with the fact that since 2002 Tendulkar has been criticised by a few members for choking in ODIs, particularly when chasing. Yet the stats tell a different story, and my comparison to Ponting was that he is very rarely, if ever, criticised for being a choker in ODIs despite averaging significantly less than Sachin when chasing scores of 240+. That doesn't mean I believe him to be a choker, I just think that criticism of Sachin (and now apparently Lara and S. Waugh too, albeit only by Deja) is ridiculously unwarranted and it was very hypocritical when Ponting didn't come under that same criticism despite being outperformed by Sachin in similar circumstances. If you're going to go down the 'choker avenue' ala Sanz, at least be consistent with it. In my view they're obviously 2 of the best ODI batsman of the modern era, and are far from chokers.

Another beauty is the idea that a final has more pressure, yet if in a ODI series a team is down 2-1 playing the 4th ODI of a best of 5 series, there isn't similar pressure. That's rubbish. Its still a must-win situation for that team, but because its not a final of a triangular tournament its not choking if one fails.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

I should have made myself clear mate. I was talking tests there.

Sorry. My bad.

 

[Deja moo]

I disagree to Deja's theory thatPonting and Tendulkar are chokers in ODIs and Tendulkar, Lara and S Waugh are/were chokers in tests based on their chasing records in ODIs and their 3rd and 4th innings averages in tests. As Slow_Love (I believe it was him, to lazy to scroll up) pointed out, a failure isn't choking, or not in my opinion anyway. If Tendulkar or Waugh come in at 2/15 chasing 480 to win (would likely happen to Tendulkar much more to Waugh considering how dominant Australia were for most of Waugh's career, or at least a large part of it) and receive an absolute corker of a ball going out for single digits, they didn't choke. Similarly if they walk in at 2/40 needing 150 to win, I wouldn't necessarily say they were under more pressure than Tendulkar/Waugh coming in at 2/40 in the first innings.

That doesn't mean I completely dismiss what Deja Moo says, because there IS something in the fact, and I'm talking ODIs here, that players like Inzy, Kallis and Dravid average almost 50 when chasing big targets but the more attacking batsman such as Ponting, Lara and Tendulkar average significantly less. I don't believe its got anything to do with choking, its got more to do with the way the batsman plays. If I presented someone with 2 groups of 3 batsman, one including Ponting, Lara and Sachin and one including Dravid, Inzy and Kallis to tell me the difference between the groups, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist (or a cricket scientist in this case ) to be able to answer that question correctly.

When I first brought the link to CricketWeb it was more to do with the fact that since 2002 Tendulkar has been criticised by a few members for choking in ODIs, particularly when chasing. Yet the stats tell a different story, and my comparison to Ponting was that he is very rarely, if ever, criticised for being a choker in ODIs despite averaging significantly less than Sachin when chasing scores of 240+. That doesn't mean I believe him to be a choker, I just think that criticism of Sachin (and now apparently Lara and S. Waugh too, albeit only by Deja) is ridiculously unwarranted and it was very hypocritical when Ponting didn't come under that same criticism despite being outperformed by Sachin in similar circumstances. If you're going to go down the 'choker avenue' ala Sanz, at least be consistent with it. In my view they're obviously 2 of the best ODI batsman of the modern era, and are far from chokers.

Another beauty is the idea that a final has more pressure, yet if in a ODI series a team is down 2-1 playing the 4th ODI of a best of 5 series, there isn't similar pressure. That's rubbish. Its still a must-win situation for that team, but because its not a final of a triangular tournament its not choking if one fails.

I've never said Sachin chokes in ODIs I said he doesnt have a good record in the latter stages of 5 day games. Clearly there are major differences in chasing in tests abd ODIs, the pressure to maintain a good SR being the most prominent, which essentially means that it is indeed possible for a batsman to be good chasing in one form of the game and poor in the other. IMO you cannot label a claim of a player being poor chasing in one form of the game and good in the other, as inconsistent claims, because they're 2 different ball games.

 

[luckyeddie]

What about leap years?

All performances recorded on 29 Feruary should be totally disregard as they cannot be repeated on a regular basis.

In 2028, 29 February is Shrove Tuesday too, so that's going to cause even more trouble what with fielders getting confused and trying to catch pancakes as well as the ball.

 

[social]

In 2028, 29 February is Shrove Tuesday too, so that's going to cause even more trouble what with fielders getting confused and trying to catch pancakes as well as the ball.

Obviously your mensa exam had a heavy weighting in religious dates.

 

[luckyeddie]

Obviously your mensa exam had a heavy weighting in religious dates.

No, I just have a degree in applied pancakes

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Majoring in (Verbal) Battering?

 

[Sanz]

What a *choker*. He has scored only 125* runs in 137 balls in the 4th innings of a test match.

 

[social]

What a *choker*. He has scored only 125* runs in 137 balls in the 4th innings of a test match.

But that's got nothing to do with how he plays in 15 ODIs that no-one cares about

 

[Buddhmaster]

How embaressing for Salamuddin

 

[andyc]

How embaressing for Salamuddin

How embarrassing indeed...

 

[Salamuddin]

What a *choker*. He has scored only 125* runs in 137 balls in the 4th innings of a test match.

What has his performance today got to do with chasing big totals in ODIS ?

Wow...he can score runs on a nice flat track against a bowling attack that has only one decent bowler in Nel....good stuff Hindustani

You come up with a decent argument explaining those figures that I originally posted not some totally irrelevant facts.

Try again programmer boy.

 

[displaced]

...
Statistics are a terrible way to "analyse" a player's performance under pressure. You can't measure pressure a player is under, the only way to assess their batting "under pressure" is by watching.

The only real way to assess a players ability, under pressure or not, is by watching them. Statistics, whilst a useful tool, will never, ever tell the whole story. Some pay them far too much credence, to the extent that I wonder if they actually watch the game.

 

[Robertinho]

\Wow...he can score runs on a nice flat track against a bowling attack that has only one decent bowler in Nel....good stuff Hindustani

You come up with a decent argument explaining those figures that I originally posted not some totally irrelevant facts.

Try again programmer boy.

Onya, Salamudders!!

The only real way to assess a players ability, under pressure or not, is by watching them. Statistics, whilst a useful tool, will never, ever tell the whole story. Some pay them far too much credence, to the extent that I wonder if they actually watch the game.

That's what I was saying...? Unless you're agreeing with me?

 

[andyc]

What has his performance today got to do with chasing big totals in ODIS ?

Wow...he can score runs on a nice flat track against a bowling attack that has only one decent bowler in Nel....good stuff Hindustani

You come up with a decent argument explaining those figures that I originally posted not some totally irrelevant facts.

Try again programmer boy.

May I ask why you felt the need to call him by his country when he clearly has a name?

 

[social]

What has his performance today got to do with chasing big totals in ODIS ?

Wow...he can score runs on a nice flat track against a bowling attack that has only one decent bowler in Nel....good stuff Hindustani

You come up with a decent argument explaining those figures that I originally posted not some totally irrelevant facts.

Try again programmer boy.

Easier to say "I was wrong!"

 

[Robertinho]

May I ask why you felt the need to call him by his country when he clearly has a name?

Shut up Australiustani

 

[PY]

The only real way to assess a players ability, under pressure or not, is by watching them. Statistics, whilst a useful tool, will never, ever tell the whole story. Some pay them far too much credence, to the extent that I wonder if they actually watch the game.

Welcome to CW mate, another chap(ess) from the other side of the Pennines.

 

[PY]

Try again programmer boy.

As much as I appreciate that it's difficult not to 'insult' people about their programming ability ( ), please give it a try.

I'm a novice programmer too, it's cool...honest.