Playing with soft hands...

[V Reddy]

One things for sure, it won't be as negative as England's approach to playing him!!!

That is one series i am really looking forward too. Aus don't score less than 3.5 and in Srl to maintain that runrate is very very tough. It will be one heck of a series.

 

[Eclipse]

Try and slog Muralitharan and you'll pay for it sooner rather than later.

While I agree with you on that statment I have seen him sloged succsesfully a few time's but it's very rare.

Ganguly has taken Murili to the cleaners twice that I can remember but both were in ODI's.

 

[iamdavid]

And Cronje certainly was. Best player of spin I've ever seen, Hayden included.

:O :O :O

Are you having a laugh , he was another of Warne's many bunnies , had it all over him.

 

[Adamc]

:O :O :O

Are you having a laugh , he was another of Warne's many bunnies , had it all over him.

Warne got Cronje out for a 3rd-ball duck in the Super Six match in the '99 WC and a 2nd-ball duck in the Semi-Final. Then again, Cronje may well have thrown his wicket.

 

[Richard]

While I agree with you on that statment I have seen him sloged succsesfully a few time's but it's very rare.

Ganguly has taken Murili to the cleaners twice that I can remember but both were in ODI's.

Well, everyone gets slogged every now and then, I suppose. No rule is without exceptions.
Anyone who's ever played many one-day games will have gone for a few sometime.

 

[Richard]

:O :O :O

Are you having a laugh , he was another of Warne's many bunnies , had it all over him.

I'd be interested to see the dismissals; you could presumably name the occasions to give me a start.
Remember Warne is a genious, and even the very best batsmen can't keep-out the very best bowling.
Look, even Laxman (easily the third-best player of spin I've seen) got out to MacGill, simply because MacGill bowled a rare jaffa. There are some balls even the best can't play.

 

[Adamc]

I'd be interested to see the dismissals; you could presumably name the occasions to give me a start.
Remember Warne is a genious, and even the very best batsmen can't keep-out the very best bowling.
Look, even Laxman (easily the third-best player of spin I've seen) got out to MacGill, simply because MacGill bowled a rare jaffa. There are some balls even the best can't play.

Cronje may have looked good playing spin but he certainly got out to it alot. In tests he has been dismissed by warne more than any other bowler (8 times) and 7 times by kumble. Same applies to ODI's: dismissed by warne 7 times and murali(tharan) 6 times. I think there is a fair case to be made that he struggles against spin, or, at the very least, against warne.

 

[Rik]

Cronje may have looked good playing spin but he certainly got out to it alot. In tests he has been dismissed by warne more than any other bowler (8 times) and 7 times by kumble. Same applies to ODI's: dismissed by warne 7 times and murali(tharan) 6 times. I think there is a fair case to be made that he struggles against spin, or, at the very least, against warne.

Just because you get out to spinners doesn't mean you are automatically a poor player of spin. If I remember correctly, Cronje made his name as a fine player of spin by scoring heavily against that style of bowling, not because he didn't get out to them.

It's like saying Athers was a poor player of fast bowling just because he was McGrath and Ambrose's bunny...

 

[Adamc]

Just because you get out to spinners doesn't mean you are automatically a poor player of spin. If I remember correctly, Cronje made his name as a fine player of spin by scoring heavily against that style of bowling, not because he didn't get out to them.

Granted. My point, though, is that Cronje could be regarded as Warne's bunny, not that he is a poor player of spin. I'm sure he was a good player of spin in general, but 'great' spinners like warne etc. are a tougher proposition. Mind you I have only seen him play on a few occasions so this is purely conjecture :P

Hmm i was just thinking about the Atherton/McGrath scenario before u edited your post... I suppose the same applies: generally good against pace, but struggles against 'great' quicks who bowl with more discipline and intelligence... just a thought

 

[Richard]

Atherton and most other international batsmen worth their salt won't struggle just because someone's hurling it down at 90+mph at them.
Atherton (like everyone) struggled against Ambrose and McGrath (not to mention Chaminda) because they were\are great bowlers who bowl seam and cut at incredible accuracy and formerly at quite a pace.
If Atherton had had more oppotunity to play against the like of Lee, Bond and other similar bowlers who are relying mostly on pace with a combination of innacuracy or no movement he would have scored far more, without a question IMO, than he did when facing Donald, Pollock, McGrath, Fleming, Ambrose, Walsh, Akram, Younis, Srinath, Prasad, Vaas, Streak.
The bowlers of the 1990s were quite a formidable prospect. Any batsman averaging 40 when playing most of their career then is quite a player. Tendulkar, who averaged 57, is something exceptional. As are Lara and Stephen Waugh, who averaged 50.
The stars of this next decade (Hayden being the flagship) are likely to be flat-track, popgun-attack bullies. But averages of 50 are looking like becoming commonplace, which is something of a shame.

 

[Craig]

Who would want to be a bowler?

And I agree with you. Especially in the era of flat pitches. A few green tops please.

 

[iamdavid]

I have actually seen quite alot of Cronje against spinners & I certainly wasnt convinced , he wasnt afraid to attack them & he used to drive Warne pretty well.
But his problem was the defensive side of things where basically he was very indecisive & tended to get only half forward & push at the ball , add to that the fact he was a very nervous starter & it becomes clear why Warne got him out so often , Warne just has that amazing ability to get into a batsmans head , Cronje & Culinan being the perfect examples.

As for occasions of dismissal I remember the 1999 WC semi , Warne bowled him a good leg break which dipped & turned a little & Cronje suffered his signature dismissal , pushing meekly at the ball off the half front foot , only to edge to slip.

I also remember him getting out to Warne in near identical fashion a couple of times in 1997/98.

For me Lara , Tendulkar , Lehmann , Andy Flower (still counts as he's a FC player) Laxman , Dravid & Sehwag are the best players of spin in the world ATM , Jayasuria , Atapattu , Kalu , Hayden , all get an honourable mention.

Hayden does score a hell of a lot of runs off spinners , but the thing people overlook is that he does always seem to give them a chance , plenty of shots in the air , relies mainly on cross batted shots & when he's in form thats great , but against a real top class spinner (Harbhajan dosent count :P) he is yet to be tested, still a great player of slow bowling but not IMO up there with Tendulkar & Laxman who are able to dominate without ever seeming to give the bowler a sniff.

 

[Richard]

Interesting, you talk about the sort of Cronje signiature dismissal; Laxman (who has dealt with the Australian wristspinners superbly up to this game) suffered exactly the same fate, in both innings, to a bowler who we both agree is average at best.
As I may have said before.

 

[iamdavid]

In the first innings it can be put down to indecisiveness , they were 8 down already & he wasnt sure whether he should have been throwing the bat or pushing it around a little longer , it showed on his shot.

In the 2nd innings it was just a ball that turned a little , but as stated (ala Cronje) he was only half forward , clearly caught in 2 minds & he just proded at it.

Interesting , thats certainly not how he played Warne in 99 or 2001 , same with Tendulkar , out in absolutely indentical fashion here & at Adelaide.

Craig says you're getting MSN in the next week or so , correct?

 

[Richard]

Hopefully. No gurantees, but we're getting Broadband then so I'll have the chance to check it out, and Craig tells me it's not that difficult.
The point about Laxman is exactly that - it's not at all how he played Warne in his last 2 series, or MacGill for most of this. He looked totally different this game. Partly circumstances conspiring against him, but partly indecisiveness.
I now hope that, even though Tendulkar replayed his dismissal off Bichel here, that he's got himself back into some sort of nick.

 

[iamdavid]

Hopefully. No gurantees, but we're getting Broadband then so I'll have the chance to check it out, and Craig tells me it's not that difficult

Its very easy.
Ive only got a P293 & I can run it easy

You just go to the download page

MSN Download page

it only took me about 4 minutes to download so it should be much quicker if you try.

Then you just go to hotmail.com & create an account with them so you can sign in

Then you can talk to Craig & Me & Marc ( ) live if you want.

 

[iamdavid]

I now hope that, even though Tendulkar replayed his dismissal off Bichel here, that he's got himself back into some sort of nick.

In all fairness I dont think he's ever been out of form , that 88 against Victoria was spellbinding & he looked great against Australia A & at Adelaide luck just hasnt been on his side , and the Aussies have always had a plan to him , they always look to bowl a wider line to him , it ties him down & like anyone he gets frustrated & he'll often be just a little bit to kean & go hard & edge it.
Really the last 2 series against Australia he's been below par , in 2001 & now , analysis of his dismissals reveals the full wide ball swinging out has had a lot to do with it.

 

[Richard]

Whenever I've thought about it, it's never ceased to amaze me how little that tactic is used. I've seen so many batsmen get out to it on occasions in the last 2 or 3 years. Trescothick is one who, when settled, simply doesn't use the leave. Two or three decent wide deliveries with him on 30 or 40 at The Oval, and I'd bet his Test career would be over now. He is one of many, in this generation of strokeplayers.
With all the video footage and strategical dressing-down, I cannot, for the life of me, understand why people don't notice that almost any driver-on-the-up will struggle to reach a very wide ball, and hence will be unable to get over the top of it, and hence will hit it in the air (if you hit in the air often enough, you'll find a fielder before too long), yet will still play the stroke.
If more people noticed this, the era of flat pitches would perhaps result in less sillily high scores?:rolleyes:

 

[Tom Halsey]

England also used that tactic to Tendulkar in parts in 2002.

 

[Richard]

Yes, and they proved their inadequecies by failing to manage even a comparatively simple thing like that for more than 1 Test.