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Players with misleading averages....

Which of the following players have misleading stats?


  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .

Sir Alex

Banned
Samaraweera's averages are not a patch on how stratospheric was Hussey's average in his first two years. Justice prevailed and I think in Thilan's case also it will come down.

Gilchrist, although one of my most fav Aussie players ever, had a test average bolstered by the fact that he played majority of his cricket in his peak. Had he been through the full Bell curve that 99% long term cricketers do, he'd be averaging in lower 40s, absolutely no small achievement.
 

Uppercut

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Not one person I've ever come into contact with has claimed that Yousuf is even close to being as good as Lara or Tendulkar. Criticism of Yousuf is a bit of a straw-man argument. I suspect people would be less critical of him if he didn't score so many runs.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
What I find happens is when a poster has an opinion on a player and stats back up this opinion some people here think that the opinion is formed entirely on stats.

If two people have diferent opinions on a player the person who's opinion is not supported by the stats allways thinks that by stating that stats are not everything and therefore that persons opinion must be wrong also.

I also think that stats tell you a bit more than some people think.
Stats can tell you anything if you really want them to. Some people look at the stats, examine them, then form the opinions (me); some just look at the stats and jump to conclusions; some form opinions and then look for stats to find them.

If two people have conflicting opinions then they will always believe the other is "manipulating the stats" when in reality the both of them are - they're just forming different conclusions based on different meanings of the same stats.

Because at the end of the day every number in cricket history is set in stone once the delivery has been bowled. There can be no manipulation. It's just about interpretation.
 

GuyFromLancs

State Vice-Captain
Samaraweera's averages are not a patch on how stratospheric was Hussey's average in his first two years. Justice prevailed and I think in Thilan's case also it will come down.

Gilchrist, although one of my most fav Aussie players ever, had a test average bolstered by the fact that he played majority of his cricket in his peak. Had he been through the full Bell curve that 99% long term cricketers do, he'd be averaging in lower 40s, absolutely no small achievement.
His test average (47) is marginally better than his first class average (44). This is perhaps owed, however, to the fact that his test average is boosted :cool: by not outs.
 

GuyFromLancs

State Vice-Captain
The average is simply a mathematical number. It is not misleading by itself. The interpretation is what is at times misleading.

Take Mohammad Yousuf.
His average is 53.
During the recent Pak-Aus series, the Aussie commentators kept saying how he is one of the best batsmen in the world, and he is so good, and they kept mentioning that he averages 54 (he did at the start of the series). Shane Warne kept saying "anyone who averages 54 is a dam good player" On the other hand, a Chris Gayle, who does not average 54, and is not considered one of the best batsmen in the world blasted two centuries against the same attack against whom Yousuf failed so miserably.
His average was up around the 57 mark for a while. However, Chris Gayle is inconsistent, doesn't move his feet and doesn't enjoy test cricket. I don't consider him to be world class in tests. Yousef for a time was very consistent, hence the average.

Now I am not trying to say they are talking crap. What I am saying is, they are obviously being diplomatic and nice to talk up the competition and using his average of 54 to back themselves up. That is the misleading bit. It is misleading because it is incomplete.
Mohammad Yousuf started playing in 98, and I was already an avid follower of cricket by then. So I have followed his career all through. For most part, until 2006, he was never considered in the big league of the best batsmen of his time. He was seen as someone who times the ball well, is stylish, looks very good at times, will score a brisk 40-50 and get out. That was used as a criticism and a reason why he is not considered in the big league.
True, but I don't recall anyone denying this though. He average around 47 and was considered very capable as opposed to great.

Then came 2005, when Pakistan started playing a lot of cricket at home. They played England, India, West Indies. Yousuf scored heavily against these teams, and on pitches that were flat as anything. Some of the totals notched up in these matches will tell you how flat the pitches were. Needless to say, neither of these 3 teams had a great bowler at that time. Harmisson was useless on dead pitches. Flintoff was decent at best.
He was one of any number of batsman whose technique favoured the noughties.

It was during this time that he broke Vivian Richards' record in 2006, and all of a sudden people started taking notice. I think he scored 9 centuries and his heavy scored boosted his average. At the end of the year, Pakistan toured South Africa for 3 test matches, and Yousuf was in the form of his life..but considering how South Africa had a slightly better bowling attack than what he had faced all year, he was back to being the old Yousuf. He scored two 80s in the 3 match series that Pakistan lost 1-2.
He is merely past his best I think.

The point is, his average of 53 places him as an equal of Lara, Tendulkar, Kallis, Ponting when it is clear he is quite below them. I am sure with more test matches against quality opponents, his average will fall more and maybe at the end of his career, his average will be 49-50.
Likewise, kallis' average puts him higher than Tendla and Lara in both major forms of the game (although SRT has just overtaken him again in tests), but I have never heard anyone seriously suggest he is a better batsman than either.



Another prime example is Thilan Samaraweera. Cricinfo writer Sambit Bal had an excellent article titled "how good is Samaraweera" where he touches on these issues of "misleading statistics" and argues well to put forward his point, that Samaraweera, despite an average of 50 plus is not all that. He uses statistics to make his point too, because statistics by itself is not misleading, but incomplete statistics is.
Agreed, but in principle stats can never be complete. There will always be one more variable to throw in:

- the cloud cover changed
- the spinner had the flu
- bowling isn't what is used to be
- He was going through a divorce
- He was bored
- etc , etc etc

.......it never ends.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
lol so true

It's so perverse, the number of people who genuinely seem to subscribe to the "the stats support you and therefore you're wrong" line of argument :blink:
8-)

Nobody has ever argued that and you're just being facile. Rather, it's a case that people recognise that stats aren't the be-all, end-all.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
8-)

Nobody has ever argued that and you're just being facile. Rather, it's a case that people recognise that stats aren't the be-all, end-all.
Exactly.

If stats were the sole arbiter of players' worths Lara's 400* would unquestioningly be regarded as the greatest ever innings because it gave his average the highest bump. As it is I doubt it's even amongst his own top half-dozen knocks.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If stats were the sole arbiter of players' worths Lara's 400* would unquestioningly be regarded as the greatest ever innings because it gave his average the highest bump. As it is I doubt it's even amongst his own top half-dozen knocks.
The 277 and 375 were to my mind undoubtedly better; apart from them, I don't see anything to top it.

The 400* is outside his top couple, top triple at best.
 

AaronK

State Regular
Yousuf definatly doesn't deserve that average..

the most maybe 45 plus..

Inzi should have averaged over 50..
 

L Trumper

State Regular
The 277 and 375 were to my mind undoubtedly better; apart from them, I don't see anything to top it.

The 400* is outside his top couple, top triple at best.
I am not sure about which one is better , but in yearly order of scoring them

277, 375, 132, 213, 153*, 400* and may be his 226 in adelaide too. Any one of them will be career defining innings for most of the other batsmen.
Which one stands where depends on ones perspective of how to rate an innings.
 

Black_Warrior

Cricketer Of The Year
His average was up around the 57 mark for a while. However, Chris Gayle is inconsistent, doesn't move his feet and doesn't enjoy test cricket. I don't consider him to be world class in tests. Yousef for a time was very consistent, hence the average.
I agree with you about Chris Gayle..was not suggesting he is a great or anything..just saying that all those things that the Aussie commentators said about Yousuf, they wouldnt say of Gayle because of his average, although Gayle performed much better than Yousuf in Australia..infact there is no comparison..he got two 100s and Yousuf managed a lone 56 in 3 test matches.




True, but I don't recall anyone denying this though. He average around 47 and was considered very capable as opposed to great.
Yes..but suppose someone who hasnt seen Yousuf before 2005, takes a look at his average of 53, dont you think he would label him great? After all, the other greats Lara and Tendulkar average around that figure..





He is merely past his best I think.
No I dont think so..I think he is back to being who he was before 2005-06. He got two 80s, in New Zealand, one 50 in Australia..Thats how he used to play before 2005.



Likewise, kallis' average puts him higher than Tendla and Lara in both major forms of the game (although SRT has just overtaken him again in tests), but I have never heard anyone seriously suggest he is a better batsman than either.
Because most people thankfully realize that just an average is incomplete by itself. There are other statistics that could be used to support the superiority of Tendulkar and Lara such as
Strike Rate (Kallis's sr is a measly 40 as opposed to Lara's 60)
Runs and 100s against the best team of their time Australia
Overall runs

There could be more I am sure..






Agreed, but in principle stats can never be complete. There will always be one more variable to throw in:

- the cloud cover changed
- the spinner had the flu
- bowling isn't what is used to be
- He was going through a divorce
- He was bored
- etc , etc etc

.......it never ends.
When I said a batting average as stats is incomplete by itself, I meant the other statistics would make it complete, not ludicrous statements like "he was bored'

Like I said before, Yousuf averages 53, but 30 against Australia and 29 against South Africa. That should put his average of 53 in proper perspective.
 

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