Players who performed well in limited opportunities for their country...

[vic_orthdox]

ummm brett lee is more than average.... if he werent an australian he would easily walk into any side in the world and would probably be (in most cases) their number one bowler

unfortunately for brett lee, as one of our wiser posters on these forums noted in another thread, a 150km/h half volley is still a half volley, and being the relatively small man (in comparison to other fast bowlers) that brett lee is, he will skid onto the bat and the best players will always be able to drive him on the up with ease. and even if they wait, they'll always get a short wide one (aus vs india in australia, anyone?) going at above 40 since his injury before the india series of 2001 (which he subsequently missed) is decidedly average.

 

[marc71178]

ummm brett lee is more than average.... if he werent an australian he would easily walk into any side in the world and would probably be (in most cases) their number one bowler

Yes, right...

 

[benchmark00]

unfortunately for brett lee, as one of our wiser posters on these forums noted in another thread, a 150km/h half volley is still a half volley, and being the relatively small man (in comparison to other fast bowlers) that brett lee is, he will skid onto the bat and the best players will always be able to drive him on the up with ease. and even if they wait, they'll always get a short wide one (aus vs india in australia, anyone?) going at above 40 since his injury before the india series of 2001 (which he subsequently missed) is decidedly average.

driving on the up is not a safe tactic if you knew the game.......



Marc... name me a team that he wouldnt get into apart from the aussies???

 

[marc71178]

England for certain.

 

[benchmark00]

England for certain.

umm that is a HUGE call.... i would rather have Lee in my side over Hoggard

 

[tooextracool]

ummm brett lee is more than average.... if he werent an australian he would easily walk into any side in the world and would probably be (in most cases) their number one bowler

because of what? his good looks?

 

[vic_orthdox]

driving on the up is not a safe tactic if you knew the game.......



Marc... name me a team that he wouldnt get into apart from the aussies???

ah, but thats exactly my point. brett lee makes it easier than the average fast bowler to drive generally, and easier to do so on the up, because he skids it onto the bat because his point of release is at a lower height to the harmisons, gillespies and mcgraths of this world.

 

[tooextracool]

umm that is a HUGE call.... i would rather have Lee in my side over Hoggard

you are kidding right? i mean lee in his last 4 years has averaged 36,41,35 and 69 respectively. how many sides in the world would want that i wonder?

 

[benchmark00]

you are kidding right? i mean lee in his last 4 years has averaged 36,41,35 and 69 respectively. how many sides in the world would want that i wonder?

The fact is that he hasnt played many matches in the last few years... Hoggard has a worse overall average than Lee... taken Less wickets and a worse strike rate... hahaha hmmmm i wonder who i would choose????????

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

C'mon, why wont you answer my question? hmm lacking basis and substance, exactly what i thought... weak

Others and I have all given you a lot of substance and statistics. It's is you who chooses to ignore those and continue your broken record impression.

 

[marc71178]

umm that is a HUGE call.... i would rather have Lee in my side over Hoggard

Hmm, well I have 2 things to say to that.

1) I'm glad you're not an English selector.
2) I'm glad Brett Lee's not English.

 

[marc71178]

The fact is that he hasnt played many matches in the last few years... Hoggard has a worse overall average than Lee... taken Less wickets and a worse strike rate... hahaha hmmmm i wonder who i would choose????????

Well if you look at their records over the last 4 years, it's very revealing as to who's been better...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The fact is that he hasnt played many matches in the last few years... Hoggard has a worse overall average than Lee... taken Less wickets and a worse strike rate... hahaha hmmmm i wonder who i would choose????????

Hoggard is a role player in the Enlglish attack. He doesn't play the "I'll see how fast I can bowl and don't care how many runs I go for" role, so you really can't compare the two. Lee has more wickets, but he's played 3 more matches, so let's compare Lee's last 34 matches with Hoggard's total of 34 matches.

Hoggard
Avge: 32.25
Econ: 3.26
SR: 59.3
5w: 2

Lee
Avge: 34.12
Econ: 3.64
SR: 56.1
5w: 3

Let's look at the last 20 Tests for each...

Hoggard
Avge: 34.09
Econ: 3.27
SR: 62.5
5w: 0

Lee
Avge: 39.40
Econ: 3.77
SR: 62.60
5w: 0

Neither has superb stats, but Hoggard's are clearly better when put into perspective. The only reason I could suggest why Lee would walk into the English side is that he's Australian.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Hmm, well I have 2 things to say to that.

1) I'm glad you're not an English selector.
2) I'm glad Brett Lee's not English.

2 wouldn't matter if 1 doesn't apply.

 

[benchmark00]

Hoggard is a role player in the Enlglish attack. He doesn't play the "I'll see how fast I can bowl and don't care how many runs I go for" role, so you really can't compare the two. Lee has more wickets, but he's played 3 more matches, so let's compare Lee's last 34 matches with Hoggard's total of 34 matches.

Hoggard
Avge: 32.25
Econ: 3.26
SR: 59.3
5w: 2

Lee
Avge: 34.12
Econ: 3.64
SR: 56.1
5w: 3

Let's look at the last 20 Tests for each...

Hoggard
Avge: 34.09
Econ: 3.27
SR: 62.5
5w: 0

Lee
Avge: 39.40
Econ: 3.77
SR: 62.60
5w: 0

Neither has superb stats, but Hoggard's are clearly better when put into perspective. The only reason I could suggest why Lee would walk into the English side is that he's Australian.

Why not quote the first 34 matches of lee's career???? before the injury??? afraid to be wrong? ohk... you my friend are weak and like to manipulate statistics so they go in favour of you

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Why not quote the first 34 matches of lee's career???? before the injury??? afraid to be wrong? ohk... you my friend are weak and like to manipulate statistics so they go in favour of you

Because I was trying to do more recent comparison.
Point taken, though you'd love to ignore everything else in that post ey? Yet I'm the weak one. The latter stats are far more relevant anyway.

 

[marc71178]

If the injury has changed him as much as the stats show then the pre-injury stats are meaningless as to how he is at the moment.

 

[benchmark00]

ok do you agree that its easier to bowl consistently well when youre in the side all the time?? not just coming back for one match then getting injured?? not too many players have had outstanding come back matches

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Adding to my point above, the pre-injury Lee is irrelevant because he's not the same bowler anymore and pre-injury Lee does not exist to say he would walk into the English side.

In the period since Hoggard's Test debut...

Hoggard 34 Tests
121 wickets
Avge: 32.25
Econ: 3.26
SR: 59.3

Lee 32 Tests
108 wickets
Avge: 36.14
Econ: 3.68
SR: 58.9

Still too weak for you?

 

[marc71178]

Except he's now been bowling poorly for 4 years (since the injury) - he's played a lot of games in that time, which he almost certainly would not have done had he been starting out post-injury.