Peak Botham vs Peak Sobers

[Migara]

Botham’s first 25 tests

1336 @ 40.48 6 tons 3 fifties
139 @ 18.52 14 5’fers 3 10’fers
36 catches

Aside from Bradman (possibly) there is no way anyone beats this allround peak based on a single discipline lol.

Imran averaged 15 with the ball in his peak in 16 tests. That easily beats peak Botham, hands down. Interestingly he averaged 48 with the bat too.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sobers in peak as batsman alone is better than peak Botham as all rounder

Lol terrible opinion liked by dumb posters, no offense

 

[subshakerz]

Imran averaged 15 with the ball in his peak in 16 tests. That easily beats peak Botham, hands down. Interestingly he averaged 48 with the bat too.

No pretty sure taking 5 wickets a test @18 and scoring 6 tons to boot makes you comparable.

Imran the better peak yes but once you factor batting it tips over the scales.

 

[kyear2]

Lol terrible opinion liked by dumb posters, no offense

Length and quality of peak. How long were the comparable peaks? One was effectively a decade with batting (and overall) numbers that put him in the argument as the best batsman bar Bradman and the greatest cricketer ever.

Not to add that Botham has a decent start absent the WSC players and some depleted lineups.

Everything in context, but carry on.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Length and quality of peak. How long were the comparable peaks? One was effectively a decade with batting (and overall) numbers that put him in the argument as the best batsman bar Bradman and the greatest cricketer ever.

Not to add that Botham has a decent start absent the WSC players and some depleted lineups.

Everything in context, but carry on.

No offense, but Sobers also benefitted from mid Indian lineups. With total context, on a 25ish Test peak, I can't think of many ways a 65 avg batsman to be more valuable than a 40 avg batsman+ 19 avg bowler. But we'll, atleast it's on brand with your "allrounders are just people who can't do one discipline well".

 

[h_hurricane]

Neither Sobers nor Botham had a peak as good as the below.

Alan Knott
Godfrey Evans
Don Thalon
Naren Tamhane
Derryck Murray

 

[Coronis]

Imran averaged 15 with the ball in his peak in 16 tests. That easily beats peak Botham, hands down. Interestingly he averaged 48 with the bat too.

Averaging 15 with the ball is not by itself better than averaging 18 with the ball and 40 with the bat.

Imran’s bowling peak was certainly better than Botham’s bowling peak, but that was not the point you tried to make.

 

[Migara]

Averaging 15 with the ball is not by itself better than averaging 18 with the ball and 40 with the bat.

Imran’s bowling peak was certainly better than Botham’s bowling peak, but that was not the point you tried to make.

The difference of bowling averages becomes more and more significant as the numbers gets lower. The difference between 16 and 15 is much difficult to achieve than that of 21 and 20. So it is not like we are discussing 24 vs 27. This is way below normal averages.

Put it this way, Botham's all round stats were bettered by Imran with ease. No one has bettered Imran's bowling peak.

 

[kyear2]

No offense, but Sobers also benefitted from mid Indian lineups. With total context, on a 25ish Test peak, I can't think of many ways a 65 avg batsman to be more valuable than a 40 avg batsman+ 19 avg bowler. But we'll, atleast it's on brand with your "allrounders are just people who can't do one discipline well".

Why are we limiting Sobers peak to 25ish games when it lasted significantly longer than that, that's my point.

And let's not pretend he didn't face tougherb

 

[capt_Luffy]

Why are we limiting Sobers peak to 25ish games when it lasted significantly longer than that, that's my point.

And let's not pretend he didn't face tougherb

He faced tougher oppositions but definitely cashed in against the weaker ones as well.
Also, I don't think "how long they were that good" is important when we are just comparing how good they were.

 

[kyear2]

He faced tougher oppositions but definitely cashed in against the weaker ones as well.

Isn't that what everyone does?

What were the tough attacks Bradman faced?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Isn't that what everyone does?

What were the tough attacks Bradman faced?

Bedser-Larwood and co I guess?? That's everyone does but isn't it something you excessively hammer on whenever Sunny is mentioned???

 

[kyear2]

Bedser-Larwood and co I guess?? That's everyone does but isn't it something you excessively hammer on whenever Sunny is mentioned???

I've said Sunny's WI record is over stated and mot representative and he's not in my best after Bradman group.

None of those takes are out of bounds.

 

[Coronis]

The difference of bowling averages becomes more and more significant as the numbers gets lower. The difference between 16 and 15 is much difficult to achieve than that of 21 and 20. So it is not like we are discussing 24 vs 27. This is way below normal averages.

Put it this way, Botham's all round stats were bettered by Imran with ease. No one has bettered Imran's bowling peak.

lol. Your whole schtick was trying to say Sobers batting peak is better than Botham’s all round peak, and now you’re saying Imran’s bowling peak is better than Botham’s all round peak too.

Do you just hate Botham or something?

 

[capt_Luffy]

I've said Sunny's WI record is over stated and mot representative and he's not in my best after Bradman group.

None of those takes are out of bounds.

As is the fact that Sobers cashed in heavily away against a mid Indian attack....

 

[kyear2]

As is the fact that Sobers cashed in heavily away against a mid Indian attack....

That's not what his legacy is primarily based on though, that's the difference.

 

[subshakerz]

Length and quality of peak. How long were the comparable peaks? One was effectively a decade with batting (and overall) numbers that put him in the argument as the best batsman bar Bradman and the greatest cricketer ever.

Not to add that Botham has a decent start absent the WSC players and some depleted lineups.

Everything in context, but carry on.

I gave you Sobers bowling peak. It is 33 tests.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Prince EWS]

Botham was a jammy bastard.

 

[silentstriker]

It’s actually very interesting and about how you define the question. Let’s say you had one series to play and you will guarantee Sobers at his absolute peak and Botham at his actual peak ? Or let’s say you get either for a period of (for example) three years - both at their peaks?

Sobers at his best will give you triple hundreds and five-fors. Botham will give you centuries and possibly ten-fers.

Sobers is probably the best cricketer (bar Bradman) ever to live, but bowling is more important than batting in winning matches and I would probably take a guaranteed Botham peak over a single Test series.

…But if I knew I was facing a peak Sobers at the other end, I would be very scared.

 

[kyear2]

It’s actually very interesting and about how you define the question. Let’s say you had one series to play and you will guarantee Sobers at his absolute peak and Botham at his actual peak ? Or let’s say you get either for a period of (for example) three years - both at their peaks?

Sobers at his best will give you triple hundreds and five-fors. Botham will give you centuries and possibly ten-fers.

Sobers is probably the best cricketer (bar Bradman) ever to live, but bowling is more important than batting in winning matches and I would probably take a guaranteed Botham peak over a single Test series.

…But if I knew I was facing a peak Sobers at the other end, I would be very scared.

That's fair.