Pathan has come of age!

[honestbharani]

No, I meant that this thread was an obvious attempt at a flame bait and you being one of the "senior" members, didn't really have to get involved.

 

[Shoaib]

Alos Shoaibs record against India is embaressing, even though he's a good bowler but he simply can't perform against Indian batsmen.

Thats why he destroyed u in 1999 Pak-India series and even batsman like Tendulkar got out on the first dellivery.Shoaib has destroyed every team's batting line up atleast twice.The worst bowlers of all time like Nehra & Pathan can't be compared to a legend like Shoaib Akhtar.Shoaib Akhtar doesn't play only when he is injured where as Nehra &Pathan are in in one series & out in the other.Both of these guys r respected as worst bowlers of all time.A soil which has produced no good fast bowler is barren and not that which has been regurly producing fast bowling legends.We have Akhtar & Gul as good bolers but u have no one even at first class level who can match the greatness of our legends.

 

[James]

Please stop the cheap shots between Indian and Pakistan members within this thread!

Its a real shame to see this with so many other quality Indian and Pakistan members on these forums who can discuss things reasonably between themselves without resorting to throwing abuse.

Obviously most of those people are bypassing this thread for obvious reasons....

Anymore of this will result in the thread being closed. An absolute final warning.

 

[Richard]

At least they had pace. That made their swing bowling more effective. Compare that with someone like Craig White or Martin Bicknell, or any of the Indian swing bowlers, who get decent swing but can't pose any threat due to their lack of pace.

Craig White certainly wasn't slow (at least not when he wasn't recovering from injury), and he was also an extremely good bowler on the rare occasions he was totally free of injury. Both he and Bicknell posed plenty of threat and were extremely unlucky not to get longer Test-careers. The problems for the Indian seamers are quite different - stemming from lack of accuracy, not lack of pace.

Harmison may be 'rubbish', but still, as a part of a bowling combination, he complements the seam/swing brigade well. While he dos the bust-up act and bowls like a cannon, Hoggard does it easy, moving the ball. Jones can move the ball off the pitch at a good pace, while Flintoff is more of a deck-hitting bowler with a lot of pace. Now that's a combination that can work. Not three Indian medium-pacers who get some degree of movement but can't rattle the batting side.

Harmison plays little or no part in the attack and within a year it'd not be at all surprising to see him no longer a part of it. Mostly Harmison bowls a heap of crap and allows easy runs while the others take wickets. That's not complementing anyone.
Flintoff, meanwhile, may be a hit-the-deck bowler but like Caddick before him he can still swing the ball (both conventionally and with reverse) because of his height. And it's that which made him a good bowler this summer - no coincidence that in the days when Flintoff merely banged the ball into the surface and didn't make any effort to move it he was even worse than Harmison these days.
Jones has so far demonstrated little in the way of ability to move the ball off the pitch, and almost all his success has come with movement through the air.

Malinga's built like a little breadstick, so don't expect too much from him- he's not even as fast, and can't maintain that pace.

Whether he can maintain it remains to be seen (history suggests probably not) but he's certainly quick at the moment, speedsters have shown that beyond doubt.
He's not got much else going for him, though, and as such he's not that good.

There's a major difference between reverse-swing at an easy pace and Shoaib's explosive pace supplemented by reverse-swing. He may not get as much movement as you would find in England's county matches, but it still works.

No, it's not pace supplemented by reverse-swing - quite the other way around. Reverse-swing supplemented by high pace. Even then Shoaib struggles to bowl it consistently for long periods of games.
There is indeed a difference between reverse-swing at high pace and in the low 80s, but swing in the low 80s is still a much more potent weapon than 90mph pace with no movement.

The Aussie attack have taken 20 wickets cheaply very often when Lee's been bowling, and they're a powerful ODI bowling unit, when he's a relatively permanent fixture. Lee has had a good Ashes series, but there's not been enough support. Bond ripped through a seven (or eight) strong Indian batting lineup, taking six for not too many.

Lee had a good Ashes series, sorry, waaat? Taking wickets in the high 40s (which he did from Lord's onwards) is NOT a good series, and that's even before you take into account that the 3 occasions he get decent figures all contained poor strokes aplenty and just 1 good delivery in each.
The Australian attack have taken 20 wickets because of McGrath, Gillespie and Warne, not because of Lee! If Fleming and Kasprowicz had played more teams would have been bowled-out even cheaper than they were.

There have been no fast men to get the figures. We've seen Brett Lee, Allan Donald, Dilhara Fernando, Nantie Hayward and Shane Bond unsettle many Indian teams.

But it isn't just India - Dilhara Fernando is one of the worst bowlers you'll ever see, Lee not much worse. Hayward has wasted his ability IMO by his terrible attitude and he'll probably not get any more chances at international level. Allan Donald, of course, unsettled many teams and not because he was quick but because he had the complete package. Bond may just make himself into a similar bowler, albeit he'll have a shorter career.

 

[Richard]

No, during Pak tour IKP was totally out of blue, he wasn't able to swing the ball atall.After that tour he seems to have sorted out the problem and is now swinging the ball with ease.

So presumably he was swinging the ball in his Tests against Australia and at home to Pakistan and South Africa too? Which would be why he came-out with an average in the 40s AGAIN?

Actually something it can be vastly different keeping in mind England's overcast conditions!!

Which does not really influence good swing-bowlers - a top-bracket swing-bowler can move it in any conditions.
Not to mention the fact that England actually throws-up plenty and plenty of clear, dry days - something that is rather too often overlooked by those viewing from afar and judging on stereotypes. It is not the case that every day in England is damp and cloudy, nor even the majority.

And this thing is going to get repeated over and over again, this madness should just stop!

Maybe it might if you didn't keep repeating "he's chucked his way to 45 Test-wickets" etc.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Compare that with someone like Craig White or Martin Bicknell, or any of the Indian swing bowlers, who get decent swing but can't pose any threat due to their lack of pace.

Glenn McGrath is not much quicker than Bicknell is/was, at all. And Bicknell, when he came into the side for 2 Tests in 2003, consistently bothered the batsmen, and bowled accuarately, and from what I've seen him, he was very unlucky not to get more Tests.

 

[marc71178]

Craig White certainly wasn't slow (at least not when he wasn't recovering from injury), and he was also an extremely good bowler on the rare occasions he was totally free of injury.

Funny how the injury thing crops up now, but isn't relevant when discussing a player you've written off in the past...

 

[cricketboy29]

I must say, this is sad, these three men, are really dragging the name of us indians supporters through the mud. Come on guys, admit it, our pacers cant do ****, and compared with pakistan, we're so far away in the fast bowling department, lets not even think of it. If your good at something, people recognize it, all these people who are saying that IKP is crap, have a reason. I like IKP myself and Zaheer, but i realise as well, that you can't compare any of our current pacers, to any of the great bowlers in the world. I mean, if IKP could get the swing he gets when he bowls at 133 kmh,at 140-145, with good direction, then he could possibly have a case to being compared to Wasim Akram.

Actions speak for themselves, the statisitics say that neither IKP or Zaheer are, forget world class, not upto scratch of any of the good fast bowling sides in the world. Even saying that, cricinfo has recently ran an article about how high quality fast bowling stocks have dropped alarmingly.

 

[greg]

Glenn McGrath is not much quicker than Bicknell is/was, at all. And Bicknell, when he came into the side for 2 Tests in 2003, consistently bothered the batsmen, and bowled accuarately, and from what I've seen him, he was very unlucky not to get more Tests.

McGrath is 5-10 mph quicker than Bicknell.

 

[Shoaib]

I must say, this is sad, these three men, are really dragging the name of us indians supporters through the mud. Come on guys, admit it, our pacers cant do ****, and compared with pakistan, we're so far away in the fast bowling department, lets not even think of it.

Godd to know that there is atleast one indian in the forum who doesn't feel any disgrace in accepting the reality about his team.I always admitt that India have much better test batsmen than ours(we r the best in ODIs though).We don't have a spinner curremtly of Anil Kumble's calibre (Kaneria has done well but most of his good performances r against Bangladesh like Irfan Pathan & we also have Tariq Mahmood & Mansoor Amjad who have the capability to show good performance against any team of the world).But India probly have the worst bowling line-up amongst the other test playing nations (excluding Ban & Zim).Abdul Razzaq (whom we consider crap in tests) is himself better than any of the indian pacers.

Pakistan:

Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 5 10 SR Econ
Shoaib Akhtar 36 1064.2 183 3569 144 24.78 6-11 11 2 44.3 3.35
Shabbir Ahmed 9 396.4 90 1096 46 23.82 5-48 2 - 51.7 2.76
Umar Gul 5 182 31 614 25 24.56 5-31 1 - 43.6 3.37
Abdul Razzaq 37 952 187 2895 77 37.59 5-35 1 - 74.1 3.04

India:

Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 5 10 SR Econ
AB Agarkar 22 726.3 149 2473 53 46.66 6-41 1 - 82.2 3.40
L Balaji 8 292.4 64 1004 27 37.18 5-76 1 - 65.0 3.43
Z Khan 40 1232.1 250 4024 111 36.25 5-29 3 - 66.6 3.26
IK Pathan 15 542.1 129 1726 66 26.15 7-59 6 2 49.2 3.18

Irfan Khan Pathan has a decent looking average only because of his good performances against Ban & Zim.Otherwise he is not better than Mohammad Sami & Rana Naveed.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

I'm going to ignore Mr shoaib as i don't want to get this thread closed.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

So presumably he was swinging the ball in his Tests against Australia and at home to Pakistan and South Africa too? Which would be why he came-out with an average in the 40s AGAIN?.

Averages told tell the complete story, and they are bound to change.The more he plays (even against the stronfger teams) the better it will get.You can deny this and can live with whatever you wanna believe



.[/QUOTE]Which does not really influence good swing-bowlers - a top-bracket swing-bowler can move it in any conditions..[/QUOTE]
Which explains as to why some of the greatest fast bowlers toiled all day without any luck untill they avoided playing in Subcontinent in past, doesn't it?

..[/QUOTE]



.[/QUOTE]Maybe it might if you didn't keep repeating "he's chucked his way to 45 Test-wickets" etc.[/QUOTE]

Or maybe if you stop supporting a so called cricketer who has a near 6 year old history of chucking and is still struggling to get acceptance in cricket world.Say whatever you want but untill Shabbir plays cricket for a considerable amount of time without being called for chucking he won't gain any respect anyweher in world.

 

[Shoaib]

I'm going to ignore Mr shoaib as i don't want to get this thread closed.

Ignoring me won't make "club level" Indian bowlers stand in the list of legends.This thread is rubbish & really deserves to be closed.

 

[Pratters]

A thread abouty which country India or Pakistan has the crap bowlers?

What good has or will come of it?

There is a reason most members have avoided it.

 

[Richard]

Funny how the injury thing crops up now, but isn't relevant when discussing a player you've written off in the past...

Nope, not funny at all.
White has been injured far more often than not between 1999 and the current day. It is not possible for someone to be injured (as was your claim to excuse Flintoff's rubbishness between 1998 and 2003\04) without recover for 4 years.

 

[Richard]

McGrath is 5-10 mph quicker than Bicknell.

At the moment he is, yes, but he wasn't 5 years ago, there was only about 3 or 4 mph difference.

 

[Richard]

Averages told tell the complete story, and they are bound to change.The more he plays (even against the stronfger teams) the better it will get.You can deny this and can live with whatever you wanna believe

Nope, playing more doesn't make people improve.
You improve only by practising.
Pathan can play as much as you want, he won't improve unless he becomes a better bowler, and that won't happen just because he plays.

Which explains as to why some of the greatest fast bowlers toiled all day without any luck untill they avoided playing in Subcontinent in past, doesn't it?

Because so many of the greatest Pakistani bowlers have struggled at home haven't they? And there have been so many other great bowlers from elsewhere than Pakistan in the subcontinent?
Fact is, good swing bowlers have come to the subcontinent and not found it impossible to swing the ball so long as it remains in good condition. Outstanding seamers will prevail in any conditions.

Or maybe if you stop supporting a so called cricketer who has a near 6 year old history of chucking and is still struggling to get acceptance in cricket world.Say whatever you want but untill Shabbir plays cricket for a considerable amount of time without being called for chucking he won't gain any respect anyweher in world.

No, he won't. But nor will anyone be justified in saying he's been a chucker throughout his career when he clearly hasn't.

 

[marc71178]

Nope, not funny at all.
White has been injured far more often than not between 1999 and the current day. It is not possible for someone to be injured (as was your claim to excuse Flintoff's rubbishness between 1998 and 2003\04) without recover for 4 years.

So it's possible to use injury as an excuse for 6 years, but not for 4...

 

[cricketboy29]

*sigh*

 

[Jarryd_S]

Ifran Pathan is a dud, if he's the best young paceman India has then they're in serious trouble.