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BoyBrumby

Englishman
I guess the solution might be to go down the 24 team, 6 groups of 4 with the 4 best third place finishers joining the group winners and runners up in a second round route a la Euro footy championship.

Adding (say) America, Canada, Spain and Kenya to the 20 qualifiers wouldn't really dilute the quality any more.
 

Ali TT

International Regular
I guess the solution might be to go down the 24 team, 6 groups of 4 with the 4 best third place finishers joining the group winners and runners up in a second round route a la Euro footy championship.

Adding (say) America, Canada, Spain and Kenya to the 20 qualifiers wouldn't really dilute the quality any more.
Problem with 24 teams is you have an imperfect path to 8 teams. You can't have an even number of qualifiers per group, so have to have some tie-breaker. Football has always included an extra Round of 16, which brings your tournament length back up.

On current rankings would give you something like
Ireland, Wales, Georgia, Romania
South Africa, Fiji, Japan, Spain
France, Australia, Tonga, Namibia
New Zealand, Argentina, Portugal, Chile,
Scotland, Samoa, Uruguay, Canada
England, Italy, USA, Hong Kong.
 

Tom Flint

International Regular
Problem with 24 teams is you have an imperfect path to 8 teams. You can't have an even number of qualifiers per group, so have to have some tie-breaker. Football has always included an extra Round of 16, which brings your tournament length back up.

On current rankings would give you something like
Ireland, Wales, Georgia, Romania
South Africa, Fiji, Japan, Spain
France, Australia, Tonga, Namibia
New Zealand, Argentina, Portugal, Chile,
Scotland, Samoa, Uruguay, Canada
England, Italy, USA, Hong Kong.
Jocks be delighted with that
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
I guess the solution might be to go down the 24 team, 6 groups of 4 with the 4 best third place finishers joining the group winners and runners up in a second round route a la Euro footy championship.

Adding (say) America, Canada, Spain and Kenya to the 20 qualifiers wouldn't really dilute the quality any more.
I've heard this before and I think it would make for a lot of inconsequential group matches. 36 games just to eliminate 8 of the semi-pro teams. I prefer the 1999 RWC format with five groups of four and a playoff round.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
I guess the solution might be to go down the 24 team, 6 groups of 4 with the 4 best third place finishers joining the group winners and runners up in a second round route a la Euro footy championship.

Adding (say) America, Canada, Spain and Kenya to the 20 qualifiers wouldn't really dilute the quality any more.
Thought about it a bit more, what are the likes of Romania, Namibia, Portugal and Chile really adding to their groups? The drop off in quality once you get outside the top 16 is huge. A reminder that only 5 teams have ever actually contested a World Cup Final, Ireland have never even made it to a semi yet. It's not like Football were you can get surprise semi finalists like Morocco, Turkey or S Korea.

I'd bring it back to 16 teams (of which anyone outside the Top 12 has to go through a qualifying tournament). That way you remove gap weeks and can take 10 days off the Tournament too.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
For me at least part of the WC's remit is to spread the gospel to nations where it's very much a minority sport.

I mean, yes the likes of Portugal and Chile aren't going to win it, but it must help to raise the sport's profile in those nations.

Uruguay did beat Fiji last time out. Admittedly a largely second string Fidge, but I guess that goes to showing bigger nations can't treat the minnows lightly.
 

Howe_zat

Audio File
For me at least part of the WC's remit is to spread the gospel to nations where it's very much a minority sport.

I mean, yes the likes of Portugal and Chile aren't going to win it, but it must help to raise the sport's profile in those nations.

Uruguay did beat Fiji last time out. Admittedly a largely second string Fidge, but I guess that goes to showing bigger nations can't treat the minnows lightly.
Yeah, the world cup is the one rugby event that isn't against the same handful teams all the time. If there aren't minnows at the world cup then you're basically saying we don't want new nations at all.

Cutting the roster to 16 would have meant no Japan in 2015.
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Thought about it a bit more, what are the likes of Romania, Namibia, Portugal and Chile really adding to their groups? The drop off in quality once you get outside the top 16 is huge. A reminder that only 5 teams have ever actually contested a World Cup Final, Ireland have never even made it to a semi yet. It's not like Football were you can get surprise semi finalists like Morocco, Turkey or S Korea.

I'd bring it back to 16 teams (of which anyone outside the Top 12 has to go through a qualifying tournament). That way you remove gap weeks and can take 10 days off the Tournament too.
How are teams and their players supposed to get better without any international exposure or any international goals to aim for
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
How are teams and their players supposed to get better without any international exposure or any international goals to aim for
My point is that over the last 30 years, there has been no sign of this happening anyway. Exposure doesn't seem to make any difference. The ICC have clearly given up on this idea even though you could argue there's more competitiveness in the next tier cricket nations than there is in their rugby equivalents.

There would still be a 16 team World Cup which is 10 more than you get in Cricket.
 

Uppercut

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My point is that over the last 30 years, there has been no sign of this happening anyway. Exposure doesn't seem to make any difference. The ICC have clearly given up on this idea even though you could argue there's more competitiveness in the next tier cricket nations than there is in their rugby equivalents.

There would still be a 16 team World Cup which is 10 more than you get in Cricket.
The cricket World Cup was difficult to find the right format for, and they botched it repeatedly before settling on the current one. The last one was somewhat more exciting as a result. But even so, it's not something that other sports are trying to emulate because, well, you described it accurately - they've given up. A World Cup is every sport's one chance to grab the attention of people outside of its usual core fandom and cricket has decided to not even try.

I can say from experience that these games mean a lot to the sporting communities of the nations involved. It's frustrating to closely follow a second-tier nation, look forward for months to the two games every four years when they get to test themselves against elite nations, and then have to listen to people complain about the sheer existence of games that nobody forces them to watch. The ICC at least came to a compromise where they're still giving second-tier nations opportunities, but in rugby this is pretty much all they get.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
It's not like Football were you can get surprise semi finalists like Morocco, Turkey or S Korea.
That's not a fair comparison as football is a far more global sport than rugby, and the nature of the sport means that it is more prone to upsets (such as Saudi Arabia beating Argentina.)
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
The cricket World Cup was difficult to find the right format for
I quite enjoyed the 2007 format, I thought that struck a good balance of allowing plenty of minnows to qualify whilst also getting rid of minnows fairly quickly. The problem with that tournament was India and Pakistan ****ing up the initial group stage, so we needed a format that didn't risk TV audiences in both countries.
 

Uppercut

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I quite enjoyed the 2007 format, I thought that struck a good balance of allowing plenty of minnows to qualify whilst also getting rid of minnows fairly quickly. The problem with that tournament was India and Pakistan ****ing up the initial group stage, so we needed a format that didn't risk TV audiences in both countries.
I think what you mean to say is that Ireland and Bangladesh foiled the ICC's evil money-making scheme by being too good.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I think the 99 and 2003 formats work best for ODI cricket.

I always think we should go this way -

8 Team Test World Cup (WTC if you wanna call it that)
12 Team ODI World Cup (WC)
16 Team T20 World Cup (WT20)
and an ICC Champions League for a 4 year cycle of Test, ODI and T20 tours culminating in a best of 3 finals between top 2 in each format.

This way, you get a proper 4 year cycle, as well as an ICC event every year.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
I can say from experience that these games mean a lot to the sporting communities of the nations involved. It's frustrating to closely follow a second-tier nation, look forward for months to the two games every four years when they get to test themselves against elite nations, and then have to listen to people complain about the sheer existence of games that nobody forces them to watch. The ICC at least came to a compromise where they're still giving second-tier nations opportunities, but in rugby this is pretty much all they get.
I take your point, but Namibia have played in every World Cup since 1999 and have lost all 24 of their matches. If they are doing enough to qualify every time but not enough to actually win a game, what has been achieved by giving them exposure to a couple of heavy thrashings every 4 years?

Cricket and Rugby are never going to grow their sports so that the elite are ever challenged by countries new to the arena. Italy have been exposed to the 6 Nations for over 20 years, they are pretty much exactly now where they started off at.

A 53 day World Cup just seems unnecessarily long.
 

Uppercut

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I take your point, but Namibia have played in every World Cup since 1999 and have lost all 24 of their matches. If they are doing enough to qualify every time but not enough to actually win a game, what has been achieved by giving them exposure to a couple of heavy thrashings every 4 years?

Cricket and Rugby are never going to grow their sports so that the elite are ever challenged by countries new to the arena. Italy have been exposed to the 6 Nations for over 20 years, they are pretty much exactly now where they started off at.

A 53 day World Cup just seems unnecessarily long.
Having countries join the elite wasn’t one of my arguments for it tbf. Sri Lanka did it though, it’s rare but not impossible.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
Having countries join the elite wasn’t one of my arguments for it tbf. Sri Lanka did it though, it’s rare but not impossible.
Ironically, it's happened more in Cricket (reduce World Cup to 10 teams) than Rugby (keep it at 20). You can add Bangladesh and Afghanistan to the list too, who'd have thought 30 years ago they'd be keeping the Windies out of a World Cup.

But in rugby, there just seems to be no sign of the teams ranked outside the Top 10 really challenging the old guard. The fact it was previously 1954 when Fiji last beat Australia tells a story.
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
I take your point, but Namibia have played in every World Cup since 1999 and have lost all 24 of their matches. If they are doing enough to qualify every time but not enough to actually win a game, what has been achieved by giving them exposure to a couple of heavy thrashings every 4 years?

Cricket and Rugby are never going to grow their sports so that the elite are ever challenged by countries new to the arena. Italy have been exposed to the 6 Nations for over 20 years, they are pretty much exactly now where they started off at.

A 53 day World Cup just seems unnecessarily long.
otoh Namibia is clearly the second best team in Africa and given the IRB (deadnaming organizations is fine) organizes qualifying by continent they would probably get a spot even in a 16-team world cup.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
But in rugby, there just seems to be no sign of the teams ranked outside the Top 10 really challenging the old guard. The fact it was previously 1954 when Fiji last beat Australia tells a story.
Australia have played Fiji 7 times in the last 20 years and only 3 of those outside World Cups. They haven't played a match in Fiji since 1984.
 

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