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On Mike Hussey...

Woodster

International Captain
To be fair though, if Australia kept picking Don Bradman today his average would take a fair plunge. Players like Flintoff will always have the fact that they were picked too early impacting on their average, while those like Hussey, picked once they were at their peak, benefit. Ten good years followed by two average ones when they probably should have retired shows a player as disproportionately worse than a player who had just seven good years.
Yes these things do have an impact on averages, and in such cases further research into the stats may reveal one or two things. But every player endures rough trots, you cannot simply eliminate these from the players records just to suit. Whether that is because he wasn't ready for Test cricket or he was past it. Any player can look back and suggest things that can ultimately benefit their own records.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
To be fair though, if Australia kept picking Don Bradman today his average would take a fair plunge.
Especially as he would be batting in a pine box.

All the other stuff is speculative. You can only really be judged on what you have done. Plenty of players have been said to have been finished after a bad run of form when only only to do well again.

Sometimes a bad run is just that, doesnt mean they are finished. That is just a guess. In the same way you have no idea what Hussey could have done if selected earlier.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Yeah, he should have averaged more, but he didn't. He's as good as what he did in the game; not what he should have. He just wasn't that good.

Trumper springs to mind though. Obviously we'll never know the exact reasons for his low average but he's a great based on a sheer legend and status at the time.

Grace is a more obvious one although if you really analyse his career for what it is, he has great stats as well.
In the case of Hooper, further investigation into his stats may be necessary, if only to tell us why he only averaged 36. Were there certain attacks he couldn't play, certain conditions he found more difficult etc. Ultimately it does not really matter, because a top player does overcome these, and he will more than likely be judged on averaging 36 in Test cricket. Just makes for interesting research imo.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I obviously could not disagree more but I dont fancy going over this stuff.

High career averages over a long career count for everything. It is consistency and longevity combined with brilliance.

TBH, I cant care less if a player averaged 50 over 20 Tests if he was **** for 60.

Im not into cherry picking. A good career average shows that your good times dominated your down times. That is the sign of class. A moderate average (ala Atherton) fairly illustrates that his ordinary times were disproportionatley larger than you could expect a quality player to have.
And the reasons are not always related to "he was not good enough to do this-and-that". I'm not interested in a whole, because parts almost always tell me more.

No-one is ever going to be crap for 60 Tests - you won't get the chance. Even Runako Morton's not played anywhere near that many.

Of course a high career average over a long career counts for something. But it's very unlikely there won't be any significant change over the course of that career which would be better understood with closer analysis.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
In the case of Hooper, further investigation into his stats may be necessary, if only to tell us why he only averaged 36. Were there certain attacks he couldn't play, certain conditions he found more difficult etc. Ultimately it does not really matter, because a top player does overcome these, and he will more than likely be judged on averaging 36 in Test cricket. Just makes for interesting research imo.
Hooper's a fairly straightforward case really - he just took an eternity to get into the Test game. IIRR, his first 30-odd Tests produced an average in the mid-20s.

From one point onwards (can't remember exactly where it was) he actually performed damn well (though he still should've played more than he ended-up doing). Hooper's isn't what it's sometimes painted as - a case of a career wasted. It's just a player who took far longer to get going in Tests than someone of his ability should. But he did, eventually, develop into a player of quite some substance.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Hooper's a fairly straightforward case really - he just took an eternity to get into the Test game. IIRR, his first 30-odd Tests produced an average in the mid-20s.

From one point onwards (can't remember exactly where it was) he actually performed damn well (though he still should've played more than he ended-up doing). Hooper's isn't what it's sometimes painted as - a case of a career wasted. It's just a player who took far longer to get going in Tests than someone of his ability should. But he did, eventually, develop into a player of quite some substance.
Hooper started off in Tests ok, but had a spell of 24 innings when he passed fifty only once, between his 7th Test (2nd inns) and his 21st Test, and his average sunk to around 22, which he could never recover from.

However, after 21 Test matches Steve Waugh averaged only 27, the rest of his career is, as they say, history.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Trumper springs to mind though. Obviously we'll never know the exact reasons for his low average but he's a great based on a sheer legend and status at the time.
Even Trumper isn't a straightforward case. If you look closely you will actually find his dominance - based purely on scoring, regardless of his grace of stroke - of the game in the early 19th-century. There's just a couple of things:
1) Trumper is overrated by some people, and a title is sometimes attempted to be bestowed upon him that he never earned, ie that he was better than Bradman. This is based more than anything on irrational hatred of Bradman.
2) Trumper's defenders generally tend to be the "well who cares about stats" types, meaning the fact that his statistical hedgemony is almost never touched upon.

These tend to stop a great many people getting the true impression of Trumper, which is really rather a shame.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Hooper started off in Tests ok, but had a spell of 24 innings when he passed fifty only once, between his 7th Test (2nd inns) and his 21st Test, and his average sunk to around 22, which he could never recover from.

However, after 21 Test matches Steve Waugh averaged only 27, the rest of his career is, as they say, history.
Stephen Waugh was a poor Test batsman for his first 40-odd Tests indeed - it wasn't until 1992/93 and a tour of New Zealand. But he then averaged 61 for his next 92 games, which is almost identical to Sachin Tendulkar's record over the same time period and over an almost identical number of games.
 

Woodster

International Captain
From Decemeber 1991 to the end of his career, Hooper averaged just above 40. Not bad at all, but still think he was capable of better.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Stephen Waugh was a poor Test batsman for his first 40-odd Tests indeed - it wasn't until 1992/93 and a tour of New Zealand. But he then averaged 61 for his next 92 games, which is almost identical to Sachin Tendulkar's record over the same time period and over an almost identical number of games.
My point being despite Waugh's poor start, he still ended with outstanding stats, which Hooper failed to address. So I don't think we can attribute Hooper's poor start to his overall below average stats, as this can be turned around. I appreciate he probably wasn't the batter that Steve Waugh, certainly with regards being run-hungry.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, in order to be a top quality player your highs have to counterbalance your lows.

Everyone has highs and lows but the higher the highs and the longer lasting the better the player.

Just to pick the highs is absolutely pointless. Anyone can have short periods of being good. Its how good and for how long that is important.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Especially as he would be batting in a pine box.

All the other stuff is speculative. You can only really be judged on what you have done. Plenty of players have been said to have been finished after a bad run of form when only only to do well again.

Sometimes a bad run is just that, doesnt mean they are finished. That is just a guess. In the same way you have no idea what Hussey could have done if selected earlier.
Translating into unsubtle for me? :p

Yeah, the truth is obviously somewhere in between. Performing for your whole career is obviously better than performing for 50% of it in the middle, but there are some cases where players have flattering or unflattering career averages as a result of, as an example, coming into the side at too young an age. Martin Crowe is as good an example of a blatantly too young, nowhere near ready player coming into test cricket as i can find. Speculative, but only to a minimum.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Average is an arithmatic mean - it's not supposed to be the actual mean score per innings.

It's merely a way of giving credit where it's due, for a batsman doing what a batsman's supposed to do, score runs and not get out (given that you can't do the former without doing the latter). Not give an indication of what he scored per innings, because hardly anyone's average stays the same for more than an innings or two at a time.
AWTA (the bit in bold in particular).

There are plenty of other readily-available ways of measuring a player's contribution than simply by an average - eg number of 50s, 100s, conversion rate, strike rate, total runs scored, etc, as well as other less hard-edged measures such as anecdote and the evidence of one's own eyes.

But a plain old average is a thing of beautiful simplicity that tells its part of the story, limited though that is, with simplicity and eloquence, for the reason given by Richard. It needs no alterations, no corrections and no amendments.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, in order to be a top quality player your highs have to counterbalance your lows.

Everyone has highs and lows but the higher the highs and the longer lasting the better the player.

Just to pick the highs is absolutely pointless. Anyone can have short periods of being good. Its how good and for how long that is important.
Well, myself I feel Stephen Waugh was good enough for long enough that I don't really mind how poor he was when he was poor. 92 Tests of sheer excellence like he produced shouldn't be judged - in any way, shape or form - by 52 (or whatever it was) Tests of mediocrity that may have preceded it. Had Australia not been in such terrible shape for much of this time, and had Waugh not been a relatively capable bowler, it's highly unlikely he'd have played half these games.

The mediocrity should be judged for the mediocrity, and the brilliance for the brilliance. Never should one impact on the other IMO, because they were simply two separate things.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Stats do come up more often in cricket than other sports though. You might, for example, point to Ponting's record against India as a reason why you think Oz will lose this series. You'd never point to Jonny Wilkinson's poor kicking record against a given team as a reason why England won't win the six nations. Maybe it is overdone a bit in cricket- can't imagine that in any stats related job 8 matches played would be considered anywhere near a reasonable number of trials, yeah?
See what you're saying and if you were designing an experiment where you had to decide how many matches in one country is 'fair', probably not. However, as so often with real-world data, you're often not there at the start of an experiment, especially in a longitudinal 'study' like the career of a batsman. Excuse the nerdery (and apologies if you've seen all this before).

In terms of statistical analysis, a batsman's career is something resembling a experimenter's nightmare. There are so many factors to consider when coming up with a number which means something and they're impossible to control for so it becomes an issue of sampling. Okay, so let's concentrate on taking a representative sample. Considering the complexities involved, the obvious (geez, ONLY) choice is a stratified random sample. Too easy, now we have to define the strata.

If your criteria is number of matches he's played, you might proportionately pick matches based on the country he's played in. Okay so 9 matches out of 120 = around 8% of all his matches played. Multiplying that by the 9 matches gives you the number of matches to pick from the 9 (around 0.7; since we're talking whole Tests here, you round up and randomly select 1 match from his 9 in India). Repeat for all countries he's played in. One more example is Australia; 68 Tests in Australia ~57% which equates to taking a random sample of ~39 matches from that 68.

Soon enough, you have what you think is a representative sample based on the countries he's played in. Awesome! Oh wait.....

Here's a non-exhaustive list of the factors which are uncontrolled and impact on whether the same is representative. They seem basic but impact on each strata;

- Significantly different people comprising bowling attacks within the strata
- Significantly different performance of the bowlers who he plays multiple times based on irreversible changes to their ability through age, injury, wear-and-tear, etc. (and, in reality, each of those impact on a bowler at different rates)
- Significantly different bowler types comprising bowling attacks within the strata
- Significantly different atmospheric conditions within the same match, let alone between matches, let alone over the course of all the Tests Ponting has played in any given country
- Significantly different pitch conditions within matches, let alone between matches let alone over the course of all the Tests Ponting has played in any given country
- Significantly different times of day when the runs are scored within the same match, let alone between matches, let alone over the course of all the Tests Ponting has played in any given country
- Significantly different condition of the balls when runs are scored within the same match, let alone between matches, let alone over the course of all the Tests Ponting has played in any given country

Etc., etc. And, of course, each of those factors don't act in isolation, they pretty much all interact. Experimental reality is that you cannot assume a sample is representative until huge factors such as the above are controlled-for. Or you could pick a different strata but then you'd still have to control for a bunch of factors and their interactions.

That's why I say an arthimetic mean is a blunt-force measure. It's doesn't take into account any of the above factors (by definition, being number of runs scored/completed innings) and, essentially, is reliant upon all of the above factors having been encountered in equal measure and smoothed out for a fair analysis of a batsman's career. Even if your career has been as long as, say, Steve Waugh, Ricky Ponting, etc., you can't say with certainty that this is the case. There are far more complex phenomena analysed than cricketers' careers but then, they're generally analysed with an incredible number of caveats associated with them, use a heap more data to ensure sample representation and, in the case of demographic stats, take decades.

This is why a cricketer's average, for me, is merely a guide and arguing over % points in deciding who's better is a waste of time for all involved. We're talking really basic experimental techniques here; arguing over averages is just completely wrong. Could write about this for days, really......
 
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pasag

RTDAS
Yeah awta for the most part as well. All this talk of Trumper makes me want to get my old avatar back also.
 

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