• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

*Official* Zimbabwe in Australia Thread

The Argonaut

State Vice-Captain
This issue about the dropped catches is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard. Every batsman who stays in for a period of time will be dropped at various stages . I don't think anyone has proven that Gilchrist gets dropped more than anyone else. It's like complaining that a batsman's average should actually be higher because of a dodgy umpiring decision. The facts speak for themselves. Currently no batsman has the record that Gilchrist has. Sure if he had batted at 5 or 6 his average would probably be lower but no so much that he would be out of the running for a World XI batting berth. There are not too many batsmen in world cricket that average above 50.

Alec Stewart's record as a keeper-batsman also is not anywhere near that of Gilchrist's. He is a fine keeper no doubt but his batting always suffered. The English side should always have used him as a batsman only. His batting record without keeping is excellent. So I can't agree that he is on a par with Gilchrist.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
He averaged 40+ when batting in the top order of a struggling side.

Don't forget also, that he had to play against the Australians, something Gilchrist hasn't had to...
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
The Argonaut said:
Alec Stewart's record as a keeper-batsman also is not anywhere near that of Gilchrist's. He is a fine keeper no doubt but his batting always suffered.
I find that rather amusing. He's allways been a superb batsman, leading run scorer through the 90s if my memory serves me correctly, and he was keeping in more Tests than he played as a speciallist batsman. Stewart has allways been more of a batsman, his keeping has been ok but nothing special, although when he started keeping consistantly it improved a great deal. Stewart either opened or batted at 3-4-5-6 in his career, Gilchrist has only ever batted at 7 unless he's been moved up the order for quick runs...

You know the best batsman we've had batting at number 7? I think it was Hick, he actually scored some when down the order :)
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
Damn you Rik, bringing logic into the equation - you should know the Aussies can't cope with logic! ;)
Don't be so harsh on Andre :O :O :O :O

Hehehe :D
 

Kimbo

International Debutant
hahaha Brad Williams fly is undone. and as he runs in it opens right up... what a muppet.
 

Eclipse

International Debutant
Rik said:
Maybe, but if all those catches had been taken we wouldn't be looking at a guy with a Test average of 60 or 3000 Test runs, it would be quite a bit lower because, a catch is a dismissal, which means he can't bat any more and can't score any more runs. Makes sense.
But do you think his avrage would only be 40 if not for all of his supposed "good luck".

Richard is trying to tell us basicly that well over 1000 of Gilchrist's 3000 test runs he does not deserve because he has been lucky.
 

Eclipse

International Debutant
marc71178 said:
I wouldn't say he'd get in a World XI based purely on his batting, since he would have batted further up the order if a specialist player, and I don't think he'd be averaging quite so many if he did.

He may be the only keeper now who would make his side on batting alone, but that's only because Stewart, who I hazard to suggest more than rivals Gilly for that title of best wicket-keeping batsman ever, has retired.
Well If he were to be selected for a world XI as a batsman he would more than likley bat at number 6 and I dont see his avrage droping very much batting at six.

On Stewart well there could hardly have been a better servant of English cricket ever and the sheer amount of runs he has made along with being a keeper makes him a great player. But as far as batting skill goes IMHO Gilchrist has him coverd.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Well, Katich picks up 6-fer. Nice. We'll see how he goes on a slightly less spinner-friendly track. :)

And there's no doubt Gilchrist gets dropped a lot but putting a large chunk of the runs he's scored in Test cricket down to luck, considering the quality of bowlers at that level, is utter crap. And getting into whether batsmen scores runs they 'deserve' is a slippery slope which is ultimately futile because it is indeed rare that a batsman gets by without a little help from the luck faeries so do we then decide that records should be judged on 'earned' vs 'lucky' runs? Ludicrous.

Consider this; how many players drop their bundle after an anxious moment or a dropped catch and get out soon afterwards? Quite a few. So the fact that Gilchrist tends to take advantage of the 'luck' he does get suggests that maybe he's a better player than some are willing to give him credit for?

Either way, what's the point of debating the 'luck' of a player? Does it actually prove anything other than a player is 'lucky' sometimes or 'more than others'? There are no other inferences to be drawn from a debate on luck (making the mental exercise futile and at worst, degrading to the player concerned) because;

- You can't make an inferences about a player's ability based on luck because by definition you're talking about factors out a player's control, hence ability doesn't come into it. If ability was a part of 'luck' then you have a contradiction because then you negate the 'chance' element of luck which defines it. Without chance, luck can't exist. If an event doesn't happen by chance, you can't call it 'lucky'.

Let's face it; a player's ability is of most interest when it comes to playing a game of cricket.

- You can't make any inferences about whether a player 'deserves' the runs or not because you're talking about a primarily subjective concept here (the concept of what one 'deserves') and I can say with some certainty that there isn't a batsman alive who hasn't been on the receiving end of some 'luck' in their career. Anyone who claims otherwise, I can say with a similar amount of certainty, is either lying or not being completely honest with themselves.

- Using to decide that someone like Gilchrist would average a lot less is debateable too because there's no guarantee of that. What if, having been dimissed for 30 in the First test in India in 2001, Gilchrist was doubly determined to score a ton in the next Test and did? That 133 would have taken a physical toll so if he wasn't around to score it, he would have (presumably) had more energy for his next few innings. And of course there's nothing to say he wouldn't have just failed again too but then what if he scored more hundreds against NZ in the subsequent series?

The point is, no-one here can say with any certainty what would happen next if Gilchrist's luck changed for the worse. Of course batting higher up the order could mean a change in fortunes but negating the greater responsibility up the order is that he would face the second new-ball less often, he'd probably have a greater chance of being settled when it came along, there wouldn't be quite so much pressure on him to go for quick runs before a declaration and he would have a chance to build an innings, etc.

I also notice that those quick to point to his good luck neglect to mention the dodgy decisions he's gotten in his career too. Sure there haven't been as many but maybe those runs he didn't 'deserve' after being dropped in the field would have been scored had some of his innings not been nipped in the bud by dodgy decisions. Who knows?

So in my opinion, any debate on luck is ultimately useless except in situations where the intent is derogatory towards the player. If anyone has anything to add to this, please say so.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah nice for Katich, but 4 of his wickets were when Zimbabwe came down the wicket, and generally they were all woeful shots. And infact another one was a poor LBW decision.

But still he did the job with a make-shift attack, taking 6 wickets is still a good achievement.
 
Last edited:

The Argonaut

State Vice-Captain
Katich could be an all round option to stick in at 6 and bowl a bit. However how will he go on a less spin friendly pitch against a stronger batting line up like India. Not well I imagine.

One worry though is the bowling of Hogg. He didn't impress me much. Let's hope MacGill is fit for when India arrive.

These injuries to the bowlers are amazing. I've never seen anything like it. The English will probably say that they have. Still to have McGrath, Lee, Gillespie, MacGill and Warne (for other reasons) out at any one time would crush most sides. It may be a steep learning curve for some of the younger brigade.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Australia are experiencing what NZ & to some extent England went through with the bad run of injuries.

The way India are batting though, I wouldn't worry too much in the up coming series.
 

age_master

Hall of Fame Member
Katich is a very handy bowler, proved so last season for the mighty Blues, as a wrist spinner he can still turn the ball on a non spinning wicket and he is always a chance for a wicket. he continues to gain experience and help from macgill about his bowling and if hes not playing internationally it is a very god thing for the blues, who without Clarke, Bevan, McGrath, Lee, macgill or Bracken for the next couple of weeks need everything the have got (only 250 odd test caps left in the side;)) back to the point last season for NSW he till managed to bowl ok on non turning wickets and his bowling is getting better all the time, so i think that he would do ok there still, than again, hes just a part timer, you dont want to put too much pressure on his bowling :P
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
My first real long look at Katich and my first thought is (when the injury crisis clears up) - "Bye bye Brad".

He's one of the more accurate 'occasional' bowlers I've seen in quite some time. I know that some of his wickets were free gifts, but you've still got to put the ball on the spot.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The question is if Katich has another sub-standard season with the bat (ie. not getting a hundred in 20 innings) and Love has another blinder (scoring hundred after double hundred) can Katich really be picked ahead of someone scoring so many runs, who should be the next in line?

Let's say for the Gabba test Lehmann is fit but Ponting or Martyn are injured and Australia have Gillespie, Lee, Bichel & MacGill all are fit to play. Love has scored two hundreds already for the season and Katich a couple of fiftys. Now, the Gabba pitch doesn't usually take spin, should Katich still be selected ahead of Love?

Of course this is hypothetical, but will the selectors pick players on the conditions presented or the players who deserved their spots more?
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
My first real long look at Katich and my first thought is (when the injury crisis clears up) - "Bye bye Brad".

He's one of the more accurate 'occasional' bowlers I've seen in quite some time. I know that some of his wickets were free gifts, but you've still got to put the ball on the spot.
For a guy who's only been bowling in FC cricket for two seasons, I'd say he's done remarkably well. He still has a lot ot learn, though.

Of course this is hypothetical, but will the selectors pick players on the conditions presented or the players who deserved their spots more?
Love's from QLD, Katich is from NSW. You do the math. :D
 

age_master

Hall of Fame Member
Mister Wright said:
Of course this is hypothetical, but will the selectors pick players on the conditions presented or the players who deserved their spots more?
depends how the likes of Clarke and Hussey go i spose. On a picth that turns abit, with Macgill and Warne out, yeah Katich would proabbly be picked, but if either Warne or Macgill are playing, the better bat will play. depends on how they all go at first class level this seaspn (Clarke in the ODI team)
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
marc71178 said:
Ervine at 5 is even more funny than Streak IMO!
Did you actually see Ervine bat in Perth , let me tell you he looked a lot better then every Zimbabwean batsman other than Wishart & Vermeulen.

It wont matter soon anyway as when Grant Flower returns I assume he will bat 4 with Wishart at 5 , hopefully Ervine at 6.
 

Andre

International Regular
Hogg wasn't too bad. He bowled quite tidly, putting pressure on the batsmen.

He just needs a few wickets to gain confidence at the top level. Everyone wrote him off when he returned to ODI's and he ended up coming good :)

Let's wait and see before giving the mantle to the guy who's bowled for just 2 seasons. Regardless of state.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Tim said:
Australia are experiencing what NZ & to some extent England went through with the bad run of injuries.
To some extent?

We lost Flintoff, Gough, Giles, Jones, Silverwood, ...
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Mister Wright said:
The question is if Katich has another sub-standard season with the bat (ie. not getting a hundred in 20 innings) and Love has another blinder (scoring hundred after double hundred) can Katich really be picked ahead of someone scoring so many runs, who should be the next in line?

Let's say for the Gabba test Lehmann is fit but Ponting or Martyn are injured and Australia have Gillespie, Lee, Bichel & MacGill all are fit to play. Love has scored two hundreds already for the season and Katich a couple of fiftys. Now, the Gabba pitch doesn't usually take spin, should Katich still be selected ahead of Love?

Of course this is hypothetical, but will the selectors pick players on the conditions presented or the players who deserved their spots more?
It's a case of picking the side to the situation - if Lehmann is missing and the pitch likely to turn, then Katich is the ideal answer.

If it's not likely to, then maybe Love is a better choice.
 

Top