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*Official* West Indies Tour of England 2020

BoyBrumby

Englishman
The 90s side actually gets a rough deal, this lot were clearly a lot worse but when you think 80s and English cricket you think Botham and 81.
Ashes generally, really & we had the better of things in the 80s as a whole.

I think I'm right in saying Gatting only won two tests as skipper from 20-odd, but they were both in Australia and those are the ones that stand out in the memory.
 

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
The 90s side actually gets a rough deal, this lot were clearly a lot worse but when you think 80s and English cricket you think Botham and 81.
Fair point. The 1998 South Africa win was an impressive achievement and they beat India a couple of times and NZ once. But they were still vastly underachieving at home all things considered.
 

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
To see the change in how dominant England at home are now, you only have to see how long it's been for some touring sides to win there. Multiple sides haven't won this century.

I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that outside the two Peter Moores settings, the last time an England coach helmed a losing home Test series was 2001.
 

morgieb

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Yeah England were lucky Australia were just as bad that 85-88 doesn't get remembered to be as awful as it actually was looking at the stats.

Though in saying that the first half of the 80's England were actually pretty decent. 90's they were just mediocre throughout.
 

morgieb

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To see the change in how dominant England at home are now, you only have to see how long it's been for some touring sides to win there. Multiple sides haven't won this century.

I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that outside the two Peter Moores settings, the last time an England coach helmed a losing home Test series was 2001.
Peter Moores wasn't coach in that 2012 South African series IIRC.

But other than that.....I think you're right. That's a pretty excellent record.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Also, stop batting last
Team management, selection, tactics weren't the best. But ultimately we can't win a series away against England with a batting lineup like ours. It's a testament to the quality of our bowling that we managed to burgle the first test but from that point on it just didn't look likely.

I am at least proud of the effort of the bowlers, who must be absolutely knackered. Shannon Gabriel was heroic, bowling 93 mph after 3 back to back tests. I'm just so sorry that they have such an incompetent group of batsmen to play with.
 

morgieb

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Speaking of the 80's though I don't get how England won that 86/87 Ashes series so comfortably. England had lost series to India and New Zealand at home after getting beaten 5-0 by the West Indies. Australia had at least managed to draw against India away from home and after hitting their nadir around 1985 had improved somewhat and were at least able to match the weaker teams. Yet they were easily beat at home to an England side that wouldn't win another Test for about 3 years or something.
 

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
Yeah England were lucky Australia were just as bad that 85-88 doesn't get remembered to be as awful as it actually was looking at the stats.

Though in saying that the first half of the 80's England were actually pretty decent. 90's they were just mediocre throughout.
I remember Matthew Engel writing that a real low point for English cricket was when Chris Cowdrey got to be Test captain largely based on the fact that he was chairman of selectors Peter May's godson.

From what I've read and heard there was progress in the 90s to make England a more viable side but it was the introduction of central contracts in 2000 that were the big turning point.
 

vcs

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Yeah, they started turning things around under Nasser Hussain around the turn on the century. Won away in SL and Pakistan, were pretty competitive in India and steadily built up to the Ashes 2005 series.
 

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
Speaking of the 80's though I don't get how England won that 86/87 Ashes series so comfortably. England had lost series to India and New Zealand at home after getting beaten 5-0 by the West Indies. Australia had at least managed to draw against India away from home and after hitting their nadir around 1985 had improved somewhat and were at least able to match the weaker teams. Yet they were easily beat at home to an England side that wouldn't win another Test for about 3 years or something.
Yeah that was the major failing of the early years of the Border/Simpson era. Reckon Botham's aggressive century in the opening Test was highly significant as that brought back all the demons of his success against them on previous tours.

I don't think Border was completely comfortable in the captaincy role as yet. There was a belief he was too chummy with the English opponents - he would go the complete opposite in 1989.

Also, apparently a prime reason Dirk Wellham was brought into the final Ashes Test because of his captaincy abilities and strengthen that area. Remember it had been less than 12 months since Border had threatened to resign publicly during a press conference.

I reckon the 1987 WC was the turning point and he never looked back as a leader
 

ImpatientLime

International Regular
Yeah, they started turning things around under Nasser Hussain around the turn on the century. Won away in SL and Pakistan, were pretty competitive in India and steadily built up to the Ashes 2005 series.
those series wins in sri lanka and pakistan are so underrated its not funny.

that england squad at that time had no right being competitive out there, never mind winning.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Thoughts on some individual players:

Kraigg Braithwaite - stays:Looked ok here, better than he has and got a grubber today which would have dismissed many better players than him. Still has more work to do though and needs better footwork to stop getting trapped lbw all the time.

John Campbell - goes: Unfortunately looked nowehere near up to it against some excellent bowling. Time to look at other options.

Shai Hope - goes: Looked much better today but then threw it away. Needs to spend some time playing FC cricket to see if he can come back and succeed at test level

Shamarh Brooks - stays: I thought he looked decent for the most part and deserves another series. He needs to move his feet though, like many of our batsmen.

Roston Chase - stays: Decent enough with the ball and okish with the bat. We need more from him with the bat, his form away from home is not good enough.

Jermaine Blackwood - stays: Was pleasantly surprised by his stick-ability. Clearly our best batsmen of the tour.

Jason Holder - stays: Awesome cricketer, great bowling in the first test, very unlucky in the second with the amount he beat the bat. Needs to take more responsibility with the bat.

Shane Dowrich - stays: Poor last 2 tests and seems to have developed severe issues with the short ball. However, had averaged 40 since 2018 before that and deserves more time.

Rakheem Cornwall - stays: Awful test here. Deserves way more chances though after the start he has had to his test career and his FC stats. I think he needs some good long spells to get back into rhythm.

Alzarri Joseph - stays: Mixed bag in his two tests. Some great spells and some average ones. His batting looked good. Will be a very important player for us.

Kemar Roach - stays: So unlucky in those first 2 tests, finally started getting the wickets he deserved in the end. Looked knackered!

Shannon Gabriel - stays: Lionheart, if anyone deserved better it is him. Great series with the ball and kept charging in even when he was clearly shattered.
 
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Beamer

International Vice-Captain
As for England, I think Mark Wood is a bit of a Hollywood bowler. Speed gun says 95mph and can bowl some breathtaking spells but ultimately Anderson, Broad and Woakes are where the real threat is. You could play him instead of Archer, who apart from one spell on day five of the first test I thought was underwhelming.
 

trundler

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If we're talking about how awful England were in the 2nd half of the 80s, the summer of 4 captains deserves a mention.
 

Arachnodouche

International Captain
At least we didn't have a limp whitewash of a series.
Just barely, though. This is obviously not a popular opinion but the gulf that opened up between the sides by the end suggests that WI rode on the adrenaline of the BLM build-up initially and by the same token England might have been a little meek at first but as that factor abated something like the natural balance between the sides, at least in English conditions, was restored.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Just barely, though. This is obviously not a popular opinion but the gulf that opened up between the sides by the end suggests that WI rode on the adrenaline of the BLM build-up initially and by the same token England might have been a little meek at first but as that factor abated something like the natural balance between the sides, at least in English conditions, was restored.
Absolutely nothing to do with BLM. We have a superb bowling attack and they blew England away in the first test and our batters managed to scrape together 300. Don;t let this terrible performance fool you into thinking we did not win that first test on merit. We were the better side for the vast majority of that first test and deserved to win.

As the series went on, our bowlers got tired, England batted better and the gulf between the two batting sides really began to show. I have said it a few times, but we won;t beat a team as good as England away without improving our batting.
 

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