*Official* West Indies in Zimbabwe Thread

[marc71178]

Hmm, looking at that England side playing, I'd say approximately 1 would get a place based on County scores.

Certainly Trescothick, Vaughan, Hussain, Butcher, Clarke, Hoggard, Harmison and Read would be struggling.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Anderson's First-Class average is excellent.

Anderson has played one full season! Of that season a great deal of his bowling was in Tests.

 

[Richard]

Anderson has played one full season! Of that season a great deal of his bowling was in Tests.

Yes, he's only played a few FC games, but I would be very surprised if his FC didn't continue it's 2002 course in 2003 had it been left to do so.
Instead of picking him for Tests and taking a large risk, one that ultimately proved a founded risk. I never thought his selection was much of a good idea, and I still don't.

 

[Richard]

Hmm, looking at that England side playing, I'd say approximately 1 would get a place based on County scores.

Certainly Trescothick, Vaughan, Hussain, Butcher, Clarke, Hoggard, Harmison and Read would be struggling.

I could accuse you of bull****ing and not knowing what you're talking about, but I'm not that sort of guy.
Instead I'll suffice with pointing-out that Butcher, Hussain, Thorpe and Clarke all average over 40 in domestic-First-Class-cricket. Read has been far better in the last 2 seasons than anyone except Geirant Jones, and he's only had 1 season. Hoggard last season was excellent, and has been for much of his career, albeit at Headingley. Harmison, well, I believe his Test record will go up again once we get to Sri Lanka and West Indies (if he goes).

 

[Neil Pickup]

The point is that they would never have got a shot in the first place if selections were made on who had the biggest county average... as you are suggesting of Collingwood.

 

[marc71178]

I could accuse you of bull****ing and not knowing what you're talking about, but I'm not that sort of guy.

Right, apart from there being others who average a lot better than these players (which is why I said they wouldn't be there if you based it on averages), how exactly am I guilty of what you've said?

 

[luckyeddie]

<snip>

how exactly am I guilty of what you've said?

At a guess, he misread ... "approximately 1 (one)..." for "approximately I (eye)..."

 

[Richard]

Right, apart from there being others who average a lot better than these players (which is why I said they wouldn't be there if you based it on averages), how exactly am I guilty of what you've said?

Look, your whole argument seems to be based on a theory that I place more importance on county averages than international averages.
The simple fact of the matter is, so what if Hick, Fairbrother and Knight have better FC averages than any of them? (not invariably true, but generally so) He has played over 50 Tests and has an average of just over 30. He is a proven failure as far as Test-cricket is concerned. Many times.
You are "guilty of what I said" because you suggested that if FC-averages were anything to go by, a number of players wouldn't be in the England side. Once you're performing in Test-cricket, you don't need to keep performing in domestic cricket (though most do) to keep your Test place.
However, the simple point is that most England batsmen with good Test averages have better First-Class averages, disproving the much-loved notion that FC-cricket is not a good guide to how someone will perform in a Test-match.
Very few players break the pattern. Generally, someone who outperforms someone in domestic-First-Class-cricket will outperform the same player in Test-cricket.
It's not that complicated, but some will try to complicate it to turn it to their advantage.

 

[marc71178]

Very few players break the pattern. Generally, someone who outperforms someone in domestic-First-Class-cricket will outperform the same player in Test-cricket.

As proven by the current players with the best career averages in FC Cricket being absolute tripe when facing good bowlers.

 

[Richard]

As proven by the current players with the best career averages in FC Cricket being absolute tripe when facing good bowlers.

"Current crop"?
You mean Ed Smith and Robert Key? And maybe Ian Ward and Aftab Habib?
Robert Key who had more problems with Damien Martyn and Stephen Waugh than Glenn McGrath and Jason Gillespie (note; "absolute tripe when facing good bowlers"). And Robert Key, the opener, who has had to bat in the middle-order for most of his Test career.
Ian Ward who was in the same boat?
And Ed Smith who has played 3 Tests? And Aftab Habib who played 3 innings'?
Because you sure don't mean Anthony McGrath, Usman Afzaal, Darren Maddy, Chris Adams or anyone else. Because none of these should have been picked by my criteria.
Nor do you mean Butcher, Atherton, Hussain, Vaughan, Stewart, Thorpe, Ramprakash or Crawley. Because none of them have been proven "absolute tripe when facing good bowling".
The two you mean are Nick Knight and Graeme Hick. And two cases don't prove anything when offset against the aforementioned eight.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Well West Indies play Zimbabwe within two weeks... November 4th I believe.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Well West Indies play Zimbabwe within two weeks... November 4th I believe.

And that has what to do with anything?

Now you see the folly in opening threads for series no one important cares about so early...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

And that has what to do with anything?

Now you see the folly in opening threads for series no one important cares about so early...

It was in order to coincide with the WI squad announcement, so its the WICB who were early :P.

 

[marc71178]

"Current crop"?

You know full well I'm talking about the Hicks, Ramprakashs, Crawleys, Knights, Wells' etc of this world - super county averages but tripe for England.

 

[Craig]

Well West Indies play Zimbabwe within two weeks... November 4th I believe.

Lara wins the toss and bats first. Chris Gayle makes 158 and Lara makes a another double ton on his Test debut in Zimbabwe and fellow Trini Merv Dillon takes 9 wickets.

Streak picks up five for the match while Ray Price picks up 10 wickets fopr the match and Grant Flower comes make to make a priceless 167.

I'm bored.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Lol. I'm starved for cricket of any kind.

 

[Rik]

The point is that they would never have got a shot in the first place if selections were made on who had the biggest county average... as you are suggesting of Collingwood.

Collingwood was picked because he scored 1000+ runs at an average of over 40 a few years ago and carried that consistincy on the next year. Trescothick was the same. Rikki Clarke has a good record but I thought the ODIs last summer showed what we all thought, that he can't bowl well enough to be classed as an all-rounder, and his batting is full of flaws which are not exposed in the county game, especially when he comes in at number 6 for Surrey when they are 400 ahead...

Hoggard has a good record for Yorkshire and did well when he came back from injury last season, Harmison has got a poor county record and if you take out his performances against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, his Test record is quite appauling. Vaughan was picked on a hunch but took years before he finally worked out how to bat in Test matches, Butcher has a good record for Surrey, Hussain averages 40+ for Essex, Read has had 2 very fine seasons for Notts, Batty has done well for Worcestershire despite the pitch there not being a great turner, Giles was a very good county bowler who seems to have forgotten how to bowl properly and it even shows when he bowls for Warwickshire now, he's just not the bowler of 5 years ago any more. McGrath was picked on a hunch, showed off exactly why he averages only 30 for Yorkshire in his career when he came across South Africa, Thorpe has a fine record in both FC and Test cricket, Stewart had the same, yes even Athers used to average over 40 for Lancs...

 

[Richard]

You know full well I'm talking about the Hicks, Ramprakashs, Crawleys, Knights, Wells' etc of this world - super county averages but tripe for England.

Sorry to continue to continue OT discussions, but I just can't let this go uncorrected:
Knight, Hick, Ramprakash and Crawley, tripe for England?
The same Knight and Hick who averaged 40 and 37 respectively, in ODI careers of over 8 years? Tripe in Tests maybe, but not exclusively for England.
Ramprakash we must have gone through fifty times, but I'll repeat it again - from 1998 onwards, Ramprakash has averaged 37 in Test-cricket when batting in his proper position. Crawley has averaged something like 50 since coming back into the side in The First Test of the 2002 home Sri Lanka series.
The simple fact of the matter is that those who have done well in domestic-First-Class-cricket and failed in Tests are as rare as those who have been comparative failures in domestic-First-Class-cricket and done well in Tests. Both are in a huge minority compared to those who have done well in both forms. They do exist (Hick, Knight, Bevan, Blewett, Benkenstein are a few examples) but they are in such a minority that their cases can be dismissed as meaningless.
As for Wells, I don't know whether you mean Vince or Alan, but Vince's county record is hardly what I'd call impressive, and how many international games did either of them play?

 

[Neil Pickup]

We've established that Ramprakash is crap. You'll have as much success convincing anyone that he isn't as I would in convincing anyone that I'm worthy of starting in Chittagong on Wednesday.

And Crawley may be averaging 50, but he sure as hell took his time over it...

 

[marc71178]

Well please accept my heartfelt apologies for not stipulating Test's, even though all along we've been talking about First Class Cricket, I can see how you got confused and dragged in smash bang wallop Cricket into it.

Crawley has averaged something like 50 since coming back into the side in The First Test of the 2002 home Sri Lanka series.

Which is good until you notice it was played almost exclusively on flat wickets against extremely weak bowling attacks. As for Ramprakash, you cannot discount things just because they don't suit your purpose - he was opening in FC Cricket at the same time, so he cannot claim to have been just thrown into it (unlike the Judge)