*** Official *** West Indies in South Africa 2014/15

[Heboric]

one team beating another.

there are more intangibles than MUH CHOKE and i say that with regards to all of the games being discussed in this thread.

The point is that the Proteas lose a game and boom its automatically a choke. So the criteria of a choke should be applied to that match.

 

[viriya]

This series should just be cancelled.. rapidly entering farce proportions.

 

[Flem274*]

So I opened the thread to see the reaction to the thrashing and instead I learn every game South Africa lose is a choke and the opposition is incapable of winning through playing well.

 

[Goughy]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know how a team that's won two consecutive Test series in England and Australia can be considered to be mentally fragile.

You misunderstand me and substituted your own words for mine. I never called South Africans mentally fragile. Far from it. I think South Africans in general as far tougher and able to withstand intense situations far bettter than the people I grew up around in England. Occasionally though in a rare occurrence when that unbending strength isnt enough then there isnt a plan B or adaptability and the wheels come off. While that can be perceived as a weakness, it is not.
It is more of a side effect of what is an undoubted strength. It is only obvious as it contrasts so greatly to the regular mentality.

While playing cricket in SA I saw more single minded fierce competitors and more breakdowns on and off the field. They are the flip side of the same coin. South Africans dont "bend not break" they absorb ungodly levels of pressure with barely a word of complaint until they no longer can and then collapse.

You may not think it is a fair assessment but it is also not the same as being mentally fragile.

 

[_Ed_]

This has been a saddening series. A strong WI team adds a lot to the World Cup, but I think we'll be missing out on that this year.

 

[GotSpin]

For the West Indies to be a strong team again all the stars Will need to align -

 

[Zinzan]

Has any other team bullied the Windies quite the way SA has since the latter's readmission to international cricket around '92?

I see in ODIs the head to head record after 55 games is South 41 and the WI a paltry 12.

This saying nothing about their utter domination in Test cricket as well.

I get SA's readmission has coincided with the Windies decline somewhat (especially since 2000) but even so, they seem to bully them like no other side.

 

[Niall]

Like England, all the resources and players and yet...

Who was that Iraqi that was adamant there are no enemy tanks in Baghdad and in a televised press conference you could see American tanks in the background but yet the bloke still denied it.

Like this final:

Final: England v West Indies at The Oval, Sep 25, 2004 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

And people still think England dont choke

But England have won a world cup in 2010, so they have something about them. I know some may sneer at t20, but a World Cup is a World Cup, However of course they have had some LOL moments, the most recent was the "chase" in the final against India in 2013. The Saffer Test side aren't chokers and nobody could call them that, their record over the years is astonishing, they have pretty much achieved everything, however until they win a world cup in a coloured clothes the "choking" tag will follow them. For what its worth, I agree like the bookies and most that Australia are the stand out side, but South Africa are as capable as anyone else of winning this time around. 3 games and all that jazz.

 

[_Ed_]

Has any other team bullied the Windies quite the way SA has since the latter's readmission to international cricket around '92?

I see in ODIs the head to head record after 55 games is South 41 and the WI a paltry 12.

This saying nothing about their utter domination in Test cricket as well.

I get SA's readmission has coincided with the Windies decline somewhat (especially since 2000) but even so, they seem to bully them like no other side.

Wow, I didn't realise it was that one-sided. Makes the WI upset in the opening game of the '03 World Cup in South Africa all the more remarkable.
1st Match: South Africa v West Indies at Cape Town, Feb 9, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Beamer]

I spend 14 hours working my backside off at work to get marketing materials ready for a new campaign, managing to avoid the score or any hints at what happened, so I can get home, put my feet up and watch my team play a ODI.

So could someone please explain to me what that was? It's one thing being beaten by the better side having done everything you can to compete. But that was utter nonesense from start to finish. I literally wanted to punch Suliemann Benn in the face on several occasions and I'm really quite a chilled out person.

I've just had enough. We deserve better. We deserve a board that puts the development of our cricket and performance of our senior team ahead of petty politics and point scoring. We deserve to be represented by a group of players who will show some pride and give 100% even if the opposition are far better than they are. I know it's not easy playing for a bunch of crooks and incompetents like the WICB but at least respect the millions of West Indians who have got up at God Knows what time to watch you play over a very dark and gloomy 15 years.

If it were up to me Suliemann Benn would never play for the West Indies again after this tour. He's not a good enough bowler to put up with his histrionics and reckless batting. Today was an absolute joke and he should be ashamed of himself.

Marlon Samuels needs a severe talking too. He played two of the most gorgeous shots anyone could see on a cricket field and middled everything and then played a shot like that? Three times now on this tour. Madness.

I'm not going to bother watching the last 2 matches, this particular squad aren't worthy of my support and I have much better things to do with my time.

 

[anil1405]

There seem to be so many off and on-field issues making a negative impact on the team. For starters they need a coach ffs.

 

[_Ed_]

I spend 14 hours working my backside off at work to get marketing materials ready for a new campaign, managing to avoid the score or any hints at what happened, so I can get home, put my feet up and watch my team play a ODI.

So could someone please explain to me what that was? It's one thing being beaten by the better side having done everything you can to compete. But that was utter nonesense from start to finish. I literally wanted to punch Suliemann Benn in the face on several occasions and I'm really quite a chilled out person.

I've just had enough. We deserve better. We deserve a board that puts the development of our cricket and performance of our senior team ahead of petty politics and point scoring. We deserve to be represented by a group of players who will show some pride and give 100% even if the opposition are far better than they are. I know it's not easy playing for a bunch of crooks and incompetents like the WICB but at least respect the millions of West Indians who have got up at God Knows what time to watch you play over a very dark and gloomy 15 years.

If it were up to me Suliemann Benn would never play for the West Indies again after this tour. He's not a good enough bowler to put up with his histrionics and reckless batting. Today was an absolute joke and he should be ashamed of himself.

Marlon Samuels needs a severe talking too. He played two of the most gorgeous shots anyone could see on a cricket field and middled everything and then played a shot like that? Three times now on this tour. Madness.

I'm not going to bother watching the last 2 matches, this particular squad aren't worthy of my support and I have much better things to do with my time.

Outstanding post. I hope things begin to get better with this team ASAP.

 

[Zinzan]

I spend 14 hours working my backside off at work to get marketing materials ready for a new campaign, managing to avoid the score or any hints at what happened, so I can get home, put my feet up and watch my team play a ODI.

So could someone please explain to me what that was? It's one thing being beaten by the better side having done everything you can to compete. But that was utter nonesense from start to finish. I literally wanted to punch Suliemann Benn in the face on several occasions and I'm really quite a chilled out person.

I've just had enough. We deserve better. We deserve a board that puts the development of our cricket and performance of our senior team ahead of petty politics and point scoring. We deserve to be represented by a group of players who will show some pride and give 100% even if the opposition are far better than they are. I know it's not easy playing for a bunch of crooks and incompetents like the WICB but at least respect the millions of West Indians who have got up at God Knows what time to watch you play over a very dark and gloomy 15 years.

If it were up to me Suliemann Benn would never play for the West Indies again after this tour. He's not a good enough bowler to put up with his histrionics and reckless batting. Today was an absolute joke and he should be ashamed of himself.

Marlon Samuels needs a severe talking too. He played two of the most gorgeous shots anyone could see on a cricket field and middled everything and then played a shot like that? Three times now on this tour. Madness.

I'm not going to bother watching the last 2 matches, this particular squad aren't worthy of my support and I have much better things to do with my time.

I feel your pain mate.

The passion & unity for the WI jersey (or cap) which seemed to disappear around the year 2000, has just never returned. Talent alone has seen the side perform on the odd occasion since (T20 WC etc), but that unity they had when I was a young nipper watching the late 80s, really does seem a life-time ago.

Whilst it's fair to say the 80s side was a bit of a 'perfect storm' with the likes of Richards, Lloyd, Richardson, Haynes, Greenidge, Holding, Garner, Ambrose, Walsh & Bishop to name a few all playing together, there's still been 'enough' talented players since to at least be competitive. If they only had half the unity of that 80s team. And as you say the leadership starts at the top, and I'm talking board level here.

Since around 2000, I've been repeating like a mantra that they will bounce back sooner or later, now I'm starting to get cynical as well. A cricketing tragedy indeed.

 

[Flem274*]

You know how we do those "pick any player from your history to put in your current team" threads? Well AFAIC this test team needs Clive Lloyd (c) more than any other player in West Indian history.

Lloyd did it once, he can do it again.

 

[_Ed_]

Talent alone has seen the side perform on the odd occasion since (T20 WC etc)

The 2004 Champions Trophy was a highlight too. I loved watching their progress through that tournament, all the way to the epic ninth wicket stand that won them the final. Ian Bradshaw was a quality cricketer.

 

[Zinzan]

You know how we do those "pick any player from your history to put in your current team" threads? Well AFAIC this test team needs Clive Lloyd (c) more than any other player in West Indian history.

Lloyd did it once, he can do it again.

Good call, chap had some presence. One of those intangible cricketers.

Also a McHesson type coach/captain would also be ideal for that team in terms of laying down an uncompromising protocol in terms of what's acceptable and what's not. Any one who doesn't give a toss for the jersey doesn't get a 2nd chance.

The 2004 Champions Trophy was a highlight too. I loved watching their progress through that tournament, all the way to the epic ninth wicket stand that won them the final. Ian Bradshaw was a quality cricketer.

Almost forgot about that. What did they put on for that wicket again? About 90 at around 6 per over or something?

 

[Goughy]

You know how we do those "pick any player from your history to put in your current team" threads? Well AFAIC this test team needs Clive Lloyd (c) more than any other player in West Indian history.

Lloyd did it once, he can do it again.

I saw Len Hutton in his prime

Another time

another time

The game, the world, and life has moved on. Sad to say but, IMO, a young Clive Lloyd wouldn't make a jot of difference to this team.

 

[kykweer.proteas]

You misunderstand me and substituted your own words for mine. I never called South Africans mentally fragile. Far from it. I think South Africans in general as far tougher and able to withstand intense situations far bettter than the people I grew up around in England. Occasionally though in a rare occurrence when that unbending strength isnt enough then there isnt a plan B or adaptability and the wheels come off. While that can be perceived as a weakness, it is not.
It is more of a side effect of what is an undoubted strength. It is only obvious as it contrasts so greatly to the regular mentality.

While playing cricket in SA I saw more single minded fierce competitors and more breakdowns on and off the field. They are the flip side of the same coin. South Africans dont "bend not break" they absorb ungodly levels of pressure with barely a word of complaint until they no longer can and then collapse.

You may not think it is a fair assessment but it is also not the same as being mentally fragile.

While i shares marius' frustration throughout the thread that a loss by south africa is automatically perceived as a choke.

This post really hit the nail on the head, it is an accurate assessment of south african sportsmen.

 

[Marius]

You misunderstand me and substituted your own words for mine. I never called South Africans mentally fragile. Far from it. I think South Africans in general as far tougher and able to withstand intense situations far bettter than the people I grew up around in England. Occasionally though in a rare occurrence when that unbending strength isnt enough then there isnt a plan B or adaptability and the wheels come off. While that can be perceived as a weakness, it is not.
It is more of a side effect of what is an undoubted strength. It is only obvious as it contrasts so greatly to the regular mentality.

While playing cricket in SA I saw more single minded fierce competitors and more breakdowns on and off the field. They are the flip side of the same coin. South Africans dont "bend not break" they absorb ungodly levels of pressure with barely a word of complaint until they no longer can and then collapse.

You may not think it is a fair assessment but it is also not the same as being mentally fragile.

While i shares marius' frustration throughout the thread that a loss by south africa is automatically perceived as a choke.

This post really hit the nail on the head, it is an accurate assessment of south african sportsmen.

Yeah, fair enough, I get what you're saying.

Also, South African cricket before Smith was very rigid tactically (it still is to a degree). If something goes wrong, as you say, it's very difficult for people to cope with.

Also, South Africa is also very macho, culturally. Men aren't allowed to show weakness etc. For example, you would never see a South African sportsman be open about issues around depression like Michael Yardy or Marcus Trescothick. I'm not saying that South African sportsmen don't have those issues, there is just a far bigger taboo around being open about them.

But fair enough, I see the point you were arguing in the post, and agree now that there is some clarity.

 

[dogwalker]

**** off.

The idea that we must all fit in that category,... **** you.