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**Official** West Indies in England 2012

Burgey

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What do you mean when you say that "nothing backs it up"? IMO lots of things back up the considered opinion that Des Haynes was a better player than Chanderpaul. In fact I reckon that most knowledgeable persons who've watched them both play against truly high quality bowling would not only disagree with you, but retort that the only thing that supports the view that Chanderpaul is better are the same stats which would also suggest that he is a better player than Viv Richards himself, when the world and his mother know different.

If you look at Chanderpaul's two-decade Test career it is very notable that his average and ability to convert starts into centuries in the first decade or more were not at all remarkable. In fact, whilst the really good bowlers whom I hope I don't need to list here were around, he was seen as a pretty average player; his career would probably have ended halfway through with him averaging in the low 40s had he been playing for a Test team with greater playing reserves than the WI of that time. It was only once the bowlers who had caused him so much trouble retired or began to lose effectiveness in the second half of his career that he became the grim runscoring machine we know today. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Too, the question of his universally-acknowledged selfishness cannot simply be swatted away on the grounds that all batsmen are selfish. Involved in twenty two run outs, yet only three times the one given out in such situations? Those are the statistics almost of a sociopath, not of a guy whom other players would look upon with affection, or look to for leadership.

It amazes me when idiots have accused his great compatriot and contemporary Brian Lara of selfishness. I dont think I've ever seen a less selfish and more generous player, one who would quite literally shed blood, sweat and tears to help his team - and thrill the crowds while doing so. I've lost track of the number of times I've almost shed tears of joy watching Lara cut loose when batting with the tail. Each and every time the prince would be the last man out - having flayed the ball to all parts in a thrilling forty-minute coda with the tail in his inimitable calypso style -, yorked or caught on the boundary. His blood was up; his average be damned: he was playing for the team; he was playing for the game; he was playing for the crowd; he was playing for the glory!

In each and every such situation the likes of Tendulkar and Chanderpaul - players who think like accountants and who don't realize that massaging one's figures by carefully accumulating not outs has never yet deceived the public - would push and nurdle the singles and twos and wait for the tailenders to get themselves out and play for their averages. Don't believe me? Check the not out stats for Lara; compare them with those of Chanderpaul, Tendulkar and other cricketing personalities whose figures would be substantially different had they adopted a more team-oriented approach to batting with the tail, running between the wickets etc. And then ask yourself: whom do we remember with more genuine affection? Who thrilled us more?

The late great Spurs' double-winning captain Danny Blanchflower once said of another sport:

"The game is about glory. It is about doing things in style, with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom.” I suspect that Chanderpaul genuinely wouldn't understand those words. Which is at least in part why, for all his impressive stats, he will never be held in the same regard, or even be regarded as being as effective - when that word is comprehended in the round -, as players such as Greenidge and Haynes, whose stats he has surpassed.
I dunno mate. It's pretty close between them. I can see arguments either way.

I really don't think this is a X >>>>>> Y case like some others. I mean, they're always opinons of course, but Dessie gets done a disservice by being in the same side as Viv, Gordon and Richie Rich, but by the same token Shiv is a one man army. It's pretty close IMO.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
It's worth pointing out that Ricky Ponting was, for the majority of his career, the epitome of how you should seek to run between the wickets, yet holds the record for int'l run outs (though a few of the ones in the last few years have been his fault). Sometimes it just happens.
 

Burgey

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Precisely, so he must've been a great judge of a run. Maybe Chanders isn't, hardly reason enough to call him a self serving sociopath.
FMD, only thing with running is to know when to judge that both you and your partner can get home. Doean't matter if you're a fat **** or a greyhound.

I've played with blokes carrying pudding, and they were great runners. Would never be in a run out, and not just cos they knocked every tight run back - they judged a run well, on whether you AND them could make it.

Have run with some quick blokes who were utter ****e. Others who were guns.
 

NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
Meh, I think this is all a load of bull****. The second-half of Chanderpaul's career has been stunning. And he has won matches for his side, so that arguments just wrong.

I don't think he bats all that slow either. Scores at a reasonable pace for mine
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Meh, I think this is all a load of bull****. The second-half of Chanderpaul's career has been stunning. And he has won matches for his side, so that arguments just wrong.

I don't think he bats all that slow either. Scores at a reasonable pace for mine
It's not a question of slow or fast. It's a question of being attuned to the game situation and the needs of the team at a specific point in time - such as, for example, not taking that single.
 

Burgey

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It's not a question of slow or fast. It's a question of being attuned to the game situation and the needs of the team at a specific point in time - such as, for example, not taking that single.
You talking the Bravo run out? Bravo didn't call ffs, from what I heard.

I mean look at the conditions ffs. Was never a 350/3 type day. Reckon he bats sensationally. Not his fault half his team mates are retards (not saying you're saying that, ftr).
 

Spikey

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i suppose the flip side is that if he doesn't take the single, and gets out next ball, I don't see him getting much praise for that. He batted with the tail like he usually bats, it worked out in the series against Australia, it didn't work out last night. It happens. Of all the things to criticise Shiv about, I don't really think the run-out or Edwards getting out are those things
 

flibbertyjibber

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I mean look at the conditions ffs. Was never a 350/3 type day. Reckon he bats sensationally. Not his fault half his team mates are retards (not saying you're saying that, ftr).
It wasn't but also it wasn't a 240-9 day either. If WI had finished 240-5/6 then that would have been about right.
 

CWB304

U19 Cricketer
You talking the Bravo run out? Bravo didn't call ffs, from what I heard.

I mean look at the conditions ffs. Was never a 350/3 type day. Reckon he bats sensationally. Not his fault half his team mates are retards (not saying you're saying that, ftr).
It would help if you actually watched the footage before popping off. Chanderpaul actually set off - which automatically renders the question of whether or not Bravo called pretty much redundant - and then three strides in he abruptly stopped and returned to his crease with not so much as a glance at his hopelessly stranded teammate. It was a totally disgusting piece of play, and I would say that "selfish" does not even go far enough to describe it. Batters who have batted together as often as Bravo and Chanderpaul have take sneaky singles like that all the time without calling, so the question of whether there was a call or not is a total red herring.

The key is that the guy who is running to the danger end - in this case Bravo - has to have full confidence that the other guy will trust his judgement and actually run. There was easily a run there ten times out ten and the only possible danger would have been from a direct hit to the end Bravo was running to. The behaviour of Chanderpaul was absolutely infuriating because Bravo was the one endangering himself and he himself was in no way in danger had he simply continued running.
 
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GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
If anything being a bit podge means you run the risk of being slightly more boundary reliant than the average batsman because you're not sharp enough for the quicker singles.

Inzy and Jess come to mind, though they made finding the gap to the boundary look so easy.
Inzy not a great runner mind!
 

Spikey

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Chanderpaul didn't particularly take off. He set off in a 'Wait' fashion. He was on stand-by for the Bravo call. Bravo didn't call. Chanderpaul returned to his crease. It's something you'll see about a million times this series. Except in this case bravo ran.
 

evanjonesaber

Cricket Spectator
It would help if you actually watched the footage before popping off. Chanderpaul actually set off - which automatically renders the question of whether or not Bravo called pretty much redundant - and then three strides in he abruptly stopped and returned to his crease with not so much as a glance at his hopelessly stranded teammate. It was a totally disgusting piece of play, and I would say that "selfish" does not even go far enough to describe it. Batters who have batted together as often as Bravo and Chanderpaul have take sneaky singles like that all the time without calling, so the question of whether there was a call or not is a total red herring.

The key is that the guy who is running to the danger end - in this case Bravo - has to have full confidence that the other guy will trust his judgement and actually run. There was easily a run there ten times out ten and the only possible danger would have been from a direct hit to the end Bravo was running to. The behaviour of Chanderpaul was absolutely infuriating because Bravo was the one endangering himself and he himself was in no way in danger had he simply continued running.
I 100% agree with this. Chanderpaul was totally at fault there - very selfish - and if I was Bravo I would be effing fuming with him. That was very Boycott-esque of Chanderpaul.
 

Burgey

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It would help if you actually watched the footage before popping off. Chanderpaul actually set off - which automatically renders the question of whether or not Bravo called pretty much redundant - and then three strides in he abruptly stopped and returned to his crease with not so much as a glance at his hopelessly stranded teammate. It was a totally disgusting piece of play, and I would say that "selfish" does not even go far enough to describe it. Batters who have batted together as often as Bravo and Chanderpaul have take sneaky singles like that all the time without calling, so the question of whether there was a call or not is a total red herring.

The key is that the guy who is running to the danger end - in this case Bravo - has to have full confidence that the other guy will trust his judgement and actually run. There was easily a run there ten times out ten and the only possible danger would have been from a direct hit to the end Bravo was running to. The behaviour of Chanderpaul was absolutely infuriating because Bravo was the one endangering himself and he himself was in no way in danger had he simply continued running.
Well actually I did watch the footage. If you've ever played cricket you might have some idea that it's in no way uncommon for someone to turn a ball like that and take one or two steps down the track. Fancy suggesting such a movement by a batsman obviates the need for a call. What a ridiculous comment. It exacerbates the need for a call. If Bravo calls then there's not run out, is there?
 
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evanjonesaber

Cricket Spectator
Chanderpaul didn't particularly take off. He set off in a 'Wait' fashion. He was on stand-by for the Bravo call. Bravo didn't call. Chanderpaul returned to his crease. It's something you'll see about a million times this series. Except in this case bravo ran.

Sorry but that is nonsense. Chanderpaul DID take off, then saw the stuff was going to hit the fan, and rushed to get his bat down before Bravo. He hung him out to dry. That is all there is to it.
 

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