*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Tom Halsey]

The fact that Murali's action LOOKS suspect is far more relevant as far as the future of cricket is concerned than any result of any test. Murali is a role-model, and he's got kids imitating his style

I don't think Murali chucks, but this is a huge problem. Apparently Bangladesh have got some guy who bowls like Murali, and Pakistan had one a while ago in the U19 World Cup who looked almost exactly like Murali. Not seen the Bangladeshi, but the Pakistani U19 was a blatant chuck - it's impossible to imitate Murali's action legally UNLESS you have the same deformity in your arm IMO.

 

[luckyeddie]

leave it Dissector, these guys aren't worth bothering.

At least, both sides trill the same mantra.

It goes something like this....

"Lalalalalalalalalalalalala I can't hear you"

 

[LongHopCassidy]

What was that?

Sorry, trilling too loud.

 

[social]

"Unfortunately, replays at 1000 frames per second (4 * the speed of the cameras used in Murali's testing btw), suggest a totally different story altogether"
A typical nothing argument. Just looking at a set of replays no matter how slow doesn't mean much. You need multiple cameras, some measurement mechanism and experts who actually understand the distinctions involved. Just asserting that politics and the "fear factor" are involved doesn't prove anything.

"His average for the doosra was 14.2 degrees. Given that the margin of error with such testing is 1%, its debatable whether such a delivery ever complied."
Actually after remedial action his doosra was down to about 10 degrees. I also hope you understand that the difference between between 15 and 14.2 is quite a lot more than 1%.

Sorry 1 degree margin of error.

The frame-speed is interesting because it allows you to see every "nuance" of a bowler's action. Some actions look good, other look like baseball.

The fact that the degree of flexion in Murali's action could be decreased from an average of 14 to 9 in a week just goes to prove 1 thing - Murali's action is a result of limited coaching and an administration that turned the other cheek. It is not the result of a deformity, optical illusion or whatever other bogus excuse you care to make up.

 

[Maison]

well after seeing murali bowling in the 1st VB ODI match, it didnt seem that bad.

when channel 9 used the suuuuuper-slooooooow-mo camera on him, it actually didnt look that bad, his action.

oh well

i still enjoy watching him, especially when he's on song

 

[C_C]

Sorry 1 degree margin of error.

The frame-speed is interesting because it allows you to see every "nuance" of a bowler's action. Some actions look good, other look like baseball.

The fact that the degree of flexion in Murali's action could be decreased from an average of 14 to 9 in a week just goes to prove 1 thing - Murali's action is a result of limited coaching and an administration that turned the other cheek. It is not the result of a deformity, optical illusion or whatever other bogus excuse you care to make up.

You need to stop commenting about what is a valid biomechanical test model and pick up Physics 101 lab manual that will give you the basics of error analysis and correct experimentation technique.
For so far, you've conviniently used information that is neither ratified by any scientist ( such as attempting to guage a bowling action from your monitor) nor has an iota of validity in anyone who knows anything about Rotational motion in 3-dimentions, torque, et.

In other words, you are bending over backwards trying to support a tried, tested and flawed idea that Murali's flexion is 'much much worse' than other international bowlers without having an iota of knowledge with regards to the various 'methodologies' involved in making such a statement.

 

[social]

You need to stop commenting about what is a valid biomechanical test model and pick up Physics 101 lab manual that will give you the basics of error analysis and correct experimentation technique.
For so far, you've conviniently used information that is neither ratified by any scientist ( such as attempting to guage a bowling action from your monitor) nor has an iota of validity in anyone who knows anything about Rotational motion in 3-dimentions, torque, et.

In other words, you are bending over backwards trying to support a tried, tested and flawed idea that Murali's flexion is 'much much worse' than other international bowlers without having an iota of knowledge with regards to the various 'methodologies' involved in making such a statement.

A slo-mo simply provides a better view of the action than is available at normal speed.

Anyway, rather continuing a futile discussion, Ill state the really really obvious: Murali bowled absolute crap the other night for the umpteenth time in Aus. If I had absolutely no knowledge of cricket or was completely biased in my views, I could draw the conclusion that Murali's record is the most padded in history as he is shown up whenever he plays decent batsmen in decent batting conditions.

 

[luckyeddie]

You need to stop commenting about what is a valid biomechanical test model and pick up Physics 101 lab manual that will give you the basics of error analysis and correct experimentation technique.

Careful.

I corrected your trigonometry last week - don't get me on to 95% or 99% confidence limits when applied to distribution curves...

 

[social]

Careful.

I corrected your trigonometry last week - don't get me on to 95% or 99% confidence limits when applied to distribution curves...

Shhh,

he's an engineer with a personalised protractor and everything

 

[C_C]

A slo-mo simply provides a better view of the action than is available at normal speed.

Anyway, rather continuing a futile discussion, Ill state the really really obvious: Murali bowled absolute crap the other night for the umpteenth time in Aus. If I had absolutely no knowledge of cricket or was completely biased in my views, I could draw the conclusion that Murali's record is the most padded in history as he is shown up whenever he plays decent batsmen in decent batting conditions.

FOR THE LAST TIME : A slow motion replay is irrelevant unless seen from different simultaneous camera angles, simply because you are trying to judge a 3-d motion from a 2-d frame of reference. This means split screen, precise timing replays, etc etc.

And if you knew something about cricket, you'd realise that Warne has been pasted more often and more violently than Murali has been. Infact i consider Warne to be far more padded up than Murali, given that Murali carries his attack and Warne is only marginally better than Kumble when he doesnt have McGrath to make things easy for him. Meanwhile people pandy out bull***** excuses about Warne being injured even before the injury occured,the magical feat of bowling 150 overs in 3 weeks despite a debilitating shoulder injury ( supposedly career threatening), being pandied the injury stuff despite him being back into the game for over a year after the injury related issues, etc. etc.
This is what you call media management - something the OZ media excells at. Another overhyped one is Denis Lillee but then again, OZ and the prime tormentee English consider a bowler with abyssimal track record on unfriendly surfaces ( which is negligible experience anyways) along with a mediocre record against the best batting lineup of his time to be 'one of the best' pace bowlers.
Perhaps if you turned down the blind patriotism and machismo, you can view things differently.

 

[C_C]

Careful.

I corrected your trigonometry last week - don't get me on to 95% or 99% confidence limits when applied to distribution curves...

Huh ? You said what your range of motion for the palm was for a 5 degree difference from the elbow. And i said it would be more accurately guaged if one used the arc of a circle calculated from radius and angle, along with a concrete idea of the length of the arm ( since the length of the arm varies considerably amongst bowlers) would be required.

 

[C_C]

Shhh,

he's an engineer with a personalised protractor and everything

Indeed. But from the way you yap about stuff you got no clue about, my guess for your profession would be manager - idiots who usually have zero idea about anything other than the financial bottomline.

 

[luckyeddie]

Huh ? You said what your range of motion for the palm was for a 5 degree difference from the elbow. And i said it would be more accurately guaged if one used the arc of a circle calculated from radius and angle, along with a concrete idea of the length of the arm ( since the length of the arm varies considerably amongst bowlers) would be required.

No you didn't - you are just making it up as you go along.

Ponting's much better than McDravid anyway.

 

[social]

FOR THE LAST TIME : A slow motion replay is irrelevant unless seen from different simultaneous camera angles, simply because you are trying to judge a 3-d motion from a 2-d frame of reference. This means split screen, precise timing replays, etc etc.

And if you knew something about cricket, you'd realise that Warne has been pasted more often and more violently than Murali has been. Infact i consider Warne to be far more padded up than Murali, given that Murali carries his attack and Warne is only marginally better than Kumble when he doesnt have McGrath to make things easy for him. Meanwhile people pandy out bull***** excuses about Warne being injured even before the injury occured,the magical feat of bowling 150 overs in 3 weeks despite a debilitating shoulder injury ( supposedly career threatening), being pandied the injury stuff despite him being back into the game for over a year after the injury related issues, etc. etc.
This is what you call media management - something the OZ media excells at. Another overhyped one is Denis Lillee but then again, OZ and the prime tormentee English consider a bowler with abyssimal track record on unfriendly surfaces ( which is negligible experience anyways) along with a mediocre record against the best batting lineup of his time to be 'one of the best' pace bowlers.
Perhaps if you turned down the blind patriotism and machismo, you can view things differently.

God, I wish fishing was this easy.

BTW, what has Lillee got to do with anything?

 

[social]

Indeed. But from the way you yap about stuff you got no clue about, my guess for your profession would be manager - idiots who usually have zero idea about anything other than the financial bottomline.

I hope for your sake that you win a ticket to Fantasy Island so you can possibly experience the only situation where a social utopia exists.

 

[C_C]

No you didn't - you are just making it up as you go along.

Ponting's much better than McDravid anyway.

Yes i did say it would be better if we used close approximations of arm lengths and used the radius and angle to calculate the arc spanned instead of a triangle. Please check back.

 

[C_C]

I hope for your sake that you win a ticket to Fantasy Island so you can possibly experience the only situation where a social utopia exists.

Sorry i dont watch crap TV shows. Better things to do in my life.

 

[C_C]

God, I wish fishing was this easy.

BTW, what has Lillee got to do with anything?

Sad that you have nothing better to do than try and bait. I suppose its one thing baiting a fish, quite another when the hooked fish takes you for a swim, eh ?

 

[parttimer]

Murali a better fielder than Warne, who just so happens to Aus' first slip? Surely you jest..

 

[luckyeddie]

Yes i did say it would be better if we used close approximations of arm lengths and used the radius and angle to calculate the arc spanned instead of a triangle. Please check back.

All right, so you did.

Incidentally, no-one ever answered my question from yonks ago where I asked whether the tolerance values were absolutes or standard deviations (hence the obscure reference to distribution curves).

If they're absolutes, then how are they determined and what precisely do they represent? Experimental error, in all likelihood.

I want to see population samples and test values so I can work out the variance and the standard deviation myself because I reckon someone's (not you) telling porkies.