*Official* Warm up Matches Discussion

[the big bambino]

Broke down in the nets...

 

[3703]

A little less emotion and more consistency. You can simultaneously talk up his athleticism and make excuses for his lack of fitness I suppose: You just can't do it with credibility. If people are willing to talk up the wunderkind at such a young age and say isn't he amazing, then its also fair to mention his lack of fitness is an issue. There is nothing to state its all to do with his age. He just might be fragile and has to prove otherwise. Yes I realise Tait was crap. That is where Cummins is atm. Like Tait he's made his name in T20 and has been barely able to bowl more than 4 overs. Yes I'm aware of his test...

As to thunderbolts thats all well and good. I've seen youtube of his test and when bowling speeds came up on some of his wkt taking balls he was in the mid to high 130s. Which is considerably less than Tait. Next excuse?

Cummins is not short of fitness. He is short of maturity. There is a substantial difference. Tait struggled for fitness, and that is why his body broke down so tremendously often - soft tissue, ligaments, weight problems - to go with bowling stress. Cummins is a superb athlete. He is simply, like every other bowler in the history of the game, going through the growing pains that come with...growing.

Now, if you want to debate the meaning of the word "fit", and be deliberately obtuse, by all means. You could say he isn't "fit" for bowling at such intensity at this stage of growth. But by the same logic you're telling me anyone ever was unfit as a teenager. No, as an athlete, he's as good as it gets. He would be a prospect in just about any aerobic sporting code. The issue is that humans aren't supposed to do what fast bowlers do, so regardless of the quality of athlete, it's a time issue.

As for your thunderbolts "saw him on youtube a bit" stuff, I've watched him play full matches in all formats. He was hitting 150s well before most do - 17/18 years of age. Not consistently at that stage, but it's reasonable to say that as he becomes a man, he is going to be able to bowl very, very quickly. As with the other express quicks over the years - Akhtar, Lee etc - he also possesses the most curious and inexplicable ability to bowl balls at other speeds too. So yes, as you quite rightly point out, while he can tick into the 150s at his current stage of physical development, he is also able to bowl in the mid to high 130s. You're quite right.

Back when McGrath was coming through the ranks, you wouldn't have heard this kid's name for a couple of years yet, let alone be talking about how he "keeps breaking down". You didn't hear about it because it happened to nearly all of them, and before everything became so thoroughly scoured and covered, they didn't emerge until that process was complete. This isn't new, or unique to Cummins. At all. To single him out as some wafer with glass hamstrings is to severely misrepresent him and demonstrate a lack of knowledge about what goes into developing a bowler who bowls quick.

 

[3703]

Isn't Cummins meant to be playing some low level matches this tour? I heard he went over with the A squad but haven't heard about him since. Anyone know what happened?

Yeah he travelled with the team as a non-playing member, then took part in a couple of lower div matches with...Ireland I think? Last I heard he pulled up well and is back in Australia now to continue whatever program they've got him on.

Edit: from his twitter - "Going to miss Northern Ireland, great people and good to get a couple of games in. #fullyfit"

 

[the big bambino]

Cummins is not short of fitness. He is short of maturity.

Well I hope the physios treating him are working on his maturity...

Just checked his speeds. In the test 5 of 6 dismissals registered with the speed gun. He ranged from 132-144 with 4 of the 5 speeds in the 130s. I saw commentary on a domestic game featuring Cummins on cricinfo. Oddly it had the speeds the guys were bowling. Cummins generally in the high 130s. Youtube of his T20 form showed speeds ranging from mid 130s to mid 140s. Highest just under 150. You'd think this would be the format he bowl his quickest. A little slower in tests.

 

[Dan]

Maturity may not have been the best word for 3703 to use there, but the point he is getting at is correct, IMO.

Cummins does not have an issue with aerobic fitness per se - he's no Mark Cosgrove in that respect, nor is he your standard 19-year-old who's doing his best to develop a beer gut before he enters his third decade. Aerobically and in terms of strength, he is at an elite level of fitness.

The issue is in terms of 'cricket fitness' or 'fast bowling strength' (the argument is getting direly semantic, so substitute whatever term/terms you please). And what 3703 is saying is that this problem is neither endemic to Cummins, nor unique to the modern age of fast bowlers. This I agree with.

Lillee broke down with a bad back, Jason Gillespie had the same types of issues in his earlier years. Bruce Reid made a career of it since he was overbowled when he was extremely young, and it afflicted Brett Lee early on as well. McDermott, McGrath (I think he had some, correct me if I'm wrong) and basically every fast bowler in their early-20s has had injury issues at some point in their early career, alongside the likes of Hazelwood, Cummins and Pattinson.

However, by the time most quicks come on the scene, they've grown and developed enough to be out of the prime period for stress fractures. It just so happens that Cummins spent the latter part of that period bowling 140+ at state and international level. Yeah, he's dire at staying on the park now, but by the time he's 23 and his body is matured, developed and far more used to the strain of bowling, he has the potential to be a ridiculously talented bowler.

When your bowling attack is primarily made up of bowlers <23 years of age, injuries are always going to occur. I cannot think of many bowlers who were both good enough to play at international level and who consistently remained on the park at that age - Dale Steyn, for example, didn't become a fixture until he was 23ish.

 

[the big bambino]

Cummins has played 5 lomg format games. That's it. Steyn debuted in fc cricket at 20. Not much more than 2 yrs than Cummins. I'm sure there's an equally large list of fast bowlers who've debuted at a young age and not had these excuses made for them. Atm Cummins can get through 4 overs. (Most of his matches have been T20). He's not fit enough (in the cricket sense - the only way that matters - similar to Watto who was an adonis) to handle fc let alone tests atm. I'm sceptical about this too young excuse. If its such an issue then cotton wool him. If you want to play him then it becomes a contradiction. He just maybe fragile. Hopefully not.

 

[Ruckus]

Cummins definitely can top 150km/h. I much prefer it anyway when super-fast bowlers choose to operate most of the time at a gear below, and then when they feel like stepping it up they can, just like Steyn does. It allows for more focus on swing and control as opposed to raw pace for the sake of it which just isn't as effective.

 

[Furball]

Isn't Cummins' action absolutely horrendous from a keeping injury free point of view?

 

[Top_Cat]

Cummins has played 5 lomg format games. That's it. Steyn debuted in fc cricket at 20. Not much more than 2 yrs than Cummins. I'm sure there's an equally large list of fast bowlers who've debuted at a young age and not had these excuses made for them.

Yeah but Steyn's a freak. The vast majority of young out-and-out quicks break down regularly until their mid-20's. That's not an excuse, that's a fact of cricketing life. No-one's saying his action is perfect or that he's been girded properly against the strains of fast bowling but it remains that the risk of injury is far higher until then.

He's not fit enough, fine. But how much of it is under his control is questionable.

 

[3703]

Cummins has played 5 lomg format games. That's it. Steyn debuted in fc cricket at 20. Not much more than 2 yrs than Cummins. I'm sure there's an equally large list of fast bowlers who've debuted at a young age and not had these excuses made for them. Atm Cummins can get through 4 overs. (Most of his matches have been T20). He's not fit enough (in the cricket sense - the only way that matters - similar to Watto who was an adonis) to handle fc let alone tests atm. I'm sceptical about this too young excuse. If its such an issue then cotton wool him. If you want to play him then it becomes a contradiction. He just maybe fragile. Hopefully not.

Look, clearly you're bitter. Whatever. Kid'll be fine as his body finishes developing and will have a great career.

 

[John73]

The obviously don't start play early to make up for lost time in a warm up match or is it raining again?

 

[Maximas]

The obviously don't start play early to make up for lost time in a warm up match or is it raining again?

time is made up in the afternoon in England

 

[John73]

time is made up in the afternoon in England

Ah... cheers

 

[Spikey]

Steve Smith moves into the 30's

 

[Maximas]

Steve Smith moves into the 30's

get excited

 

[Spikey]

BBC commentator just went on the July 3 wikipedia page and talked about some of Holidays and observances on today. thanks bro!

July 3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Spikey]

I would like Ian Healy to spend all of next summer reading wikipedia pages instead of commentating on the game

 

[Spikey]

Jim Maxwell is in the commentary box guys!

He's a fan of Smitteh. Jimmeh forever!

 

[Spikey]

Jim giving the great state of NSW a plug

Smitteh into the 40's

 

[Spikey]

Smitteh 50!!!