Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
Ah, that bloke was unbelieveable. WAG!!
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*Official* Sri Lanka in South Africa 2011/12
- Thread starter Daemon
- Start date
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Greatest batsman after Bradman.
Briony
International Debutant
Talking about past eras of ODI's, they had a classics match on the other night where Tubby Taylor was dismissed for 11 off 31 balls. Totally different mentally then.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Well if you standardise his average across time and opposition standard with my system it ends up at 45.37; so I don't think he's too far wrong. Still think he was/is a great batsman though.
That's a tad bit presumptuous of you. Mahela is one of the best players of spin in the world. He's going through a rough patch of late, but he'll pull through. Even in the last test series he didn't look out of touch. He just needs to put things together.
Nomanculture
School Boy/Girl Captain
Apart from one knock from Faf, no youngster managed to do anything for SA. So fair to say the so called experiments failed big time. Not being able to defend totals in excess of 300 consecutively is an utter failure too, especially considering the state of the opposition you're facing.
We won a Test in SA for the first time ever, something we couldn't do even with the likes of Murali, Vaas etc. That Durban jinx is such a pathetic excuse for you to bring in. It makes me laugh my ****ing ass out.
Unfair to sack Marsh, yes. More than the board, it's the whole political system that's corrupt. No way out ATM.
Agree with Black_Warrior, Mahela is the biggest FTB in the world (maybe on par with Sehwag), might be the most over hyped cricketer as well. People fall for his elegance and style and whatever ****, but he's just a mega failure on lively tracks.
Migara
International Coach
We'll say HTB. Mahela is amazing on spinning pitches.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
I don't see any shame in averaging 45...why is that such a blasphemy? Graham Thorpe averaged 44 and is considered a good player. Maheja Jayawardene is a good player, a very good player in fact. Anyone who can score centuries, double and triple against test standard bowling attacks, no matter where is a good player in my view..even a very good player. But he is just not a great batsman..and I don't see whats wrong with that. Not everyone can be a great batsman otherwise being great wouldn't actually be great would it. I place Jayawardene in the same category as Mohammad Yousuf, good to very good players who often go AWOL when the going gets tough. And I get the exact same reaction from Pakistani fans when I say that. Now it has quietened a little bit after Yousuf's tours of NZ and Aus in 2009-10.
The difference between a great and a good player is the difference between Jayawardene and Sangakkara in this series..Sanga struggled as well and failed in a lot of innings but somehow still managed to score 2 centuries that helped Sri Lanka win two games. He also helped save a game in England after failing in the first two test matches.
When I call someone a Flat track bully, I don't mean they are bad players. Even Sehwag in my view is a borderline flat track bully but I would pick him in my team 9 times out of 10.
Being flat track bullies is fine especially if you are going to play most of your cricket on flat pitches. Problem starts when flat track bullies are mistaken for ATG batsmen based on their records. I remember back in 2006-07 when Yousuf broke the record, people started hailing him as a great, comparing him with Ponting, Tendulkar, calling him the greatest Pakistani batsman. While scoring 1700 runs in a calendar year is a phenomenal achievement no doubt, but in the same year, at his peak Pakistan toured South Africa and Yousuf failed to score a single century despite being at the form of his life. He managed a few 50s..which makes him a good player.
In short, being a flat track bully does not necessarily make anyone a bad player, at least not in my books..They are very good players.. they are just not great batsmen that's all.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
I don't really think I disagree with you much about the quality of Jayawardene; I just call more players "great" than you I guess. A mid 40s average would do his performances better justice but a mid-40s average player who plays for 15 years (or more - he's still not retired) is a great player IMO. Thorpe would've been a great player if he played more cricket and maintained the standards he set in the time he played.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Well that clears it then..no disagreement..however just out of curiosity, if someone who averages 45 for 15 years is great, how would you classify someone who averages 50 for 15 years +?
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Greater.
I mean, you can draw the line where you want, but if you want to draw the line at 50 then I can ask of you "If Hammond is a great, then what is Bradman?" - there's always someone at the top echelon of any grouping who is better than those at the bottom echelon of that grouping. I reckon Jaywardene pretty much has to make the top 50 batsmen of all time unless you're really keen on the "must do well away from home" thing, and I don't think it's a stretch to say there have been 50 great batsmen play in in 125 years or so of Test cricket.
Challis
U19 12th Man
Just had a look at Mahela's ODI stats with statsguru, he averages over 60 at a SR over 90 when he has opened the innings, his stats in the other positions are somewhat average. Albeit this is a tiny sample size, it does raise the question why doesn't he open the innings in ODIs more often? A top order of Mahela, Dilshan, Sanga, Chandimal, Mathews looks (atleast on paper) pretty impressive.
Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
There is more proof to suggest that he is a home track bully than a flat track bully. I've seen him bat with ease and comfort on slow difficult tracks where everyone else has struggled with the ball hardly coming onto the bat. He's played exceptionally well on spinning turfs as well and is much better than most of his team mates on these sort of wickets. I don't even have to look too far back to point out an example of where he has batted exceptionally on a difficult pitch.
This game just happened a few months back when Australia toured down here, I don't know if you followed the series. Pitch was condemned by captains from both teams and the venue was even questioned on his suitability for cricket as a result of the game. He scored a hundred there in a losing cause that even made opposition supporters give him plaudits for his performance. Angelo Mathews scored a 95 in that second dig which was scoffed at due to the number of times he got lucky with his strokes. Mahela on the other hand knew exactly what he was doing out there.
Calling him a home track bully is a call which I won't contest because he hasn't done enough to prove his quality overseas for me. I personally believe he can play well in overseas conditions as well but I won't contest that to you. A flat track bully on the other hand, is not really an accurate assessment I reckon. I mean, we're talking about the leading test run scorer of all time for Sri Lanka here. The guy has scored over 20,000 international runs against world class opposition and you seriously can't believe that all those 20,000 runs were made on roads. Not only is it not logical, the fact of the matter is that it simply isn't true.
Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
Agree completely. You could probably throw Thirimanne into the mix as an additional middle-order batsmen and you have a fairly strong lineup on paper. While Tharanga has done a decent job, I have a hard time believing that he deserves a slot in the lineup ahead of Mahela.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Bradman is what you call in statistics an 'outlier' value. This is why, whenever I compare great batsman, whether its Tendulkar vs Lara or Richards vs Sobers.. or any of those greats..its always second best for me.. It should be an undisputed fact that Bradman is the greatest of all time. With that out of the way, you will find that a vast majority of the great batsman of the world who have played over 50 test matches at least, average between 50 and 60. Hence that is where I draw the line.Greater.
I mean, you can draw the line where you want, but if you want to draw the line at 50 then I can ask of you "If Hammond is a great, then what is Bradman?" - there's always someone at the top echelon of any grouping who is better than those at the bottom echelon of that grouping. I reckon Jaywardene pretty much has to make the top 50 batsmen of all time unless you're really keen on the "must do well away from home" thing, and I don't think it's a stretch to say there have been 50 great batsmen play in in 125 years or so of Test cricket.
It is because he can score centuries like the one you pointed out, that he is a very good batsman. It is also because he does not do it too often, that he is not a great batsman.
In the 2004 series against Australia when he faced the invincible Australian team, even at home he could not manage a single century.
That is where I draw the line. Once again I have to bring up Mohammad Yousuf because I place these two batsmen in the same category..Yousuf like Jayawardene has scored a lot of runs, but neither of them score runs too often when the going gets tough..they do score runs, but just not as often as a Dravid or Tendulkar or a Ponting..and hence they are rated below them. Flat track bullies can be very good players of spin bowling too. Both Yousuf and Jayawardene are l good players of spin bowling..its their tendency to go AWOL more often than not when the going gets tough that makes the difference. Of course in a career of 15 years plus, they will have a few instances of scoring in a pressure situation in difficult conditions, but not as often as some of the greats of the same era.
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Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
Never said anything about comparing him with the likes of Dravid, Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting. Those guys are consistent performers at the highest level, no doubt about that. I'm also not really concerned about whether you call him a very good player or a great player, its your opinion and your way of classifying the player and thats fine. The only point I really addressed was you calling him a flat-track bully.
The bit I quoted above sounds a bit strange to me and I'm not sure exactly what you're meaning to say here. If I get it right, your point is that a player can be a flat-track bully despite being a good player against a specific type of bowling, like spin, or swing bowling? My point was not about the type of bowling but the actual pitches that he plays on. Take a spinning turf like Galle for instance, he averages more or less the same there as he does in SSC which is a flat pitch.
A flat track gives bowlers no assistance at all and yet its clear that a player like Mahela is more than comfortable on a spinning turf which can hardly be considered a flat track. He's also played well on slow wickets. A home-track bully is a fair call which can be backed by stats, but a flat-track bully seems a claim which lacks substance.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
The reason I brought up Dravid, Tendulkar and the others is to elaborate on how I make the distinction between good and great players. Jayawardene is a good player of spin bowling but when it was a question of facing Warne on the 5th day at Galle, he failed. You can be a good player of spin bowling and yet be a flat track bully because bad players of spin bowling will fail against spinners even on flat pitches because they are just bad players. Case in point being England against Ajmal in the first test.
My point is that his record of 10000 test runs at 50 plus might mislead people to think that he is on the same level as the other greats of his era. When Yousuf was playing in Australia in 2009-10, the Aussie commentators, including Warne who probably didn't see Yousuf a lot couldn't stop talking about how Yousuf was averaging 53 and had broken Viv's record. Yet no one was willing to acknowledge how this supposed great player was failing every match.
Both Yousuf and Jayawardene are very good players, great timing and placement, look very elegant, but give them a challenging situation, something for the bowlers, a pressure match situation, and 7 times out of 10 they will fail. That century against Australia is one of those 3 occasions.
My point is that his record of 10000 test runs at 50 plus might mislead people to think that he is on the same level as the other greats of his era. When Yousuf was playing in Australia in 2009-10, the Aussie commentators, including Warne who probably didn't see Yousuf a lot couldn't stop talking about how Yousuf was averaging 53 and had broken Viv's record. Yet no one was willing to acknowledge how this supposed great player was failing every match.
Both Yousuf and Jayawardene are very good players, great timing and placement, look very elegant, but give them a challenging situation, something for the bowlers, a pressure match situation, and 7 times out of 10 they will fail. That century against Australia is one of those 3 occasions.
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Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
You admit he is a good player of spin and its obvious that he does well on spinning turfs so I don't see how you could call him a flat track bully. Whether he fails during critical games or against exceptional bowlers holds no real bearing on his ability to play spin on a spinning turf.