***Official** South Africa v India in Ireland

[LA ICE-E]

Because fortunately The ECB got there first, and made such a thing impossible. It's a shame they didn't manage the same with Scotland and Ireland... in fact, it's a shame people didn't do that back in 1903 which was the time things should really have been properly classified.

No, I$C$C wanted more teams to make the game appear more Global. Otherwise neither Scotland or Ireland would have been taken seriously as international entities, because both have historically been weaker than the weakest First-Class county.

Doesn't matter, Wales could still separate if they wanted to. It's utter crap to say the ICC did this which they didn't Ireland and Scotland choose to apply for separate membership and they qualified for it. Wales too can still separate from the ECB. Ireland in football used to play as one team but then separated to Ireland and Northern Ireland so it doesn't matter that ECB got there 1st if Wales choose to than they can still separate but they right now don't while Ireland and Scotland did. And FYI Ireland is defending their Intercontinental championship this year after they won last year so to say it's all ICC is bull **** too. If the ICC wanted more teams they could but they don't so it's all crap is what your saying.

 

[LA ICE-E]

It would. Mostly games like that are one-sided wastes of time which everyone soon gets tired of.

No it wouldn't they get money from playing these big teams which helps the countries cricket's development if not their current players. One-side games? The whole ashes was one-sided and that didn't include an associated so don't bring that bull ****. I'm not saying Ireland and the other associates should be playing Australia but they should be playing lower ranked full members.

 

[LA ICE-E]

Playing standards is all that matters where ODI status is concerned!!!!!!!! If a team isn't good enough, it shouldn't be demeaning the integrity of the international game.

What's good enough and isn't good enough is too up to people's point of view and from mine it's good enough.

 

[LA ICE-E]

No, they wouldn't, because West Indies have been a historically accurately named entity. If the team called "England" was instead called "The British Isles" I$C$C would never have been able to make a case for trying to break it up.

Whatever efforts I$C$C make, though, Ireland have historically always been far weaker than Yorkshire, and it makes less sense to try and make a separate team out of them than it does with any single First-Class county.

Really but from what I hear from you is that Irelnad playing as England has been historical too. If the countries from West Indies decided to break up, no one would be able to stop them. If Jamaica wanted to separate from the rest they could but they choose not to. The ICC didn't break Ireland and Scotland from England. Why the hell do you keep insisting that bull **** but never show any sufficient proof for that?

 

[LA ICE-E]

On the contrary, a very bad thing - because said ODI-status gives the impression that Ireland vs Holland is the same as Sri Lanka vs South Africa. When in fact it's less than Kent vs Leicestershire.

Teams like Holland and Canada DO NOT REQUIRE ODI STATUS to play each other. All that needs is a programme.

Really because going by what you're saying it gives a impression that a match between Australia vs Bangladesh or Bangladesh vs West Inides is the same as South Africa vs Australia or England vs Australia. It's not the same thing there either and people know that.

They have a program but with ODI status they have a chance to play against lower ranked full members more often than they did before.

 

[LA ICE-E]

There are some things which you can throw as much capital at it as you want, you'll still not produce a decent team. ODI and Test status will not get you sponsors, not if you are relentlessly thrashed. The only way to get sponsors is to have interest in the game - otherwise people are not concerned with sponsoring you.

The only way for a place to get better at cricket is for a cricketing culture to grow. And that cannot be bought, it cannot be achieved through giving some incorrectly-passed status such as Test or ODI, it cannot be achieved through sponsors and TV revenue (because sponsors and TV companies are concerned only with what is going to be watched, otherwise they're throwing their money down the drain), it cannot even be achieved through bizarre one-off successes.

In fact, in most cases it's not possible to achieve at all. For a cricketing culture to grow requires something which cannot be forced upon anything, and that is why the delusions of expansion are just that. There is a limit to the areas cricket can reach. It's not impossible that said limit may already have been reached.

And the chances of them ever doing so are extremely remote.

Yeah money doesn't do it all for you but you need money to up front and than you could do something about getting a cricketing culture there. Test status will definitely get you sponsors at least from International companies because other international teams have to play you. ODI status too helps because if you do good it counts as something. One one said giving ODI status and Test status gets a cricket culture to grow but when they earn it(which they did by qualifying). But the first step is to get the ODI status and get some fund and then continue the programs for the cricketing culture to grow. And no for the most cases it's not impossible to achieve but that you have to keep trying for a long time for which you need money. Crickets growth isn't limited. If the ICC had the money and they could get cricket on free TV here and try to make it main stream it would work but its just that they currently don't have that kind of money.

The chances being remote wasn't the point but that what you're saying about the ICC breaking Ireland and Scotland apart from England is all but crap with nothing to support it but saying ICC being obsessed with "globalization".

 

[LA ICE-E]

You know that do you? You've been inside the heads of every cricketer playing in Ireland? No. You're just making ill-educated comments from faraway based on misunderstanding and historical matters which, mercifully for all concerned, are becoming less and less of an issue.

Irish and Englishmen are no longer people who hate each other, in most cases of rationally-behaved types. As a result, there is no reason they should not play cricket together.

It doesn't matter if they hate each other or not. You say things like you know that all the Irishmen wants to play for England. Which using common sense, makes me think you're wrong. Pakistani people and Indian people necessarily don't hate each other but would a Indian player rather play for Pakistan or vice versa? In most cases no. It's just using common sense.

 

[LA ICE-E]

Yes, they could. And the ICC would probably allow it, too!

I don't think LA-ICE is actually saying they shouldn't be allowed to do so, either...

I doubt they would be allowed to imo but if they had a fair case they might be.

 

[LA ICE-E]

Ireland has a much bigger population than Yorkshire though, so one could argue that they hence have more potential to become test standard than Yorkshire. Yorkshire have approximately 0 (in big red font or otherwise) chance of becoming test standard, but Ireland, while they are currently a lesser side, do have a chance. Whether the ICC should be looking towards pipe-dreamed potential or instead focusing on maintaining the quality of cricket is up for debate for sure, but I don't for a second believe it would make more sense to give Yorkshire ODI status than Ireland, even if they are better at this current time. New South Wales, on the other hand....

Yeah I agree with you that ICC should be focusing on maintaining the quality of cricket, which they kind of are by giving a whole lot amount of money to the full members and way more than they do to the associates to keep the full members cricketing quality up. The ICC i think trust the full members to use the money right to keep their game up(which is wrong in the case of Zimbabwe but thats a different issue) and so I don't think they are making the quality any worser but are trying to get the associates quality up more by giving some of the top nations a chance to improve.

 

[LA ICE-E]

Well, their captain never did - he aspired to play for Australia all his life. Their opening batsman and opening bowler are in the same boat there. Their best bowler of the World Cup wanted to play for South Africa all his life. Ireland was a second choice for many of their best players...

And of course, Ed Joyce never aspired to play for England despite, you, know, actually do so, and Eion Morgan, Boyd Rankin and Niall O'Brien have no aspirations to play for England despite joining English county teams.

I don't really like your little dig at Ireland with their expats player but for you info, its not the case that they came to Ireland because they couldn't make it somewhere else. In all they have 4 expats players who are all settled in Ireland and have wifes kids etc there and some even learned their cricket there. 4 isn't really a high number for the associates comparing that England a full member has some.

The Irish players imo don't have a choice right now not to join the English county teams if they want to play test cricket. So no they don't aspire to play for england but they aspire to play test cricket and get better at cricket and right now they don't have an option and hopefully in the future they will.

 

[LA ICE-E]

Separating the West Indies would actually dethrone a test and ODI standard nation though. Separating Ireland from England has minimal to no effect on England since most of Ireland's players aren't good enough for England regardless and the ones that are typically try to qualify anyway (Joyce being a great example here.)

Yeah but if they wanted to they could. Say if Windies cricket board have a melt down and then Jamaica wants to separate they can and they might apply for full membership up front even but I don't think they would get it but would probably get associate status up front.

 

[LA ICE-E]

You've stopped at five, Rob? Poor...

Anyway - as Manan is ever-fond of pointing-out, population isn't all there is to it. Yorkshire has always has a massive culture of cricket. Ireland hasn't. It'll take more than a victory in one hungover match in 1969 or one World Cup game in 2007 to make the neccessary boost.

There have, indeed, been many times in the past, even if those days are gone forever (and I should just let 'em go but... I can see you, your brown skin shining in - *ahem* excuse me), when Yorkshire have had a better side than many Test teams.

Yeah but the thing is they have to capitalize on their success and push for more. It's up to administrating as much as it is to playing. But you need the 1st boost and then if you have a good administration than you can continue otherwise they stay at the same spot.

As said before Yorkshire isn't a different nation despite them being better than many test teams.

 

[LA ICE-E]

If it aided in perpetuating their expansion myth, they would very possibly do.

No, unless it meet its qaulification criteria which it probably wouldn't. And FYI a team isn't promoted to a certain membership without the votes of the national boards. Like jersey for example are trying to get promoted to associate status and they have pretty good facilities too but they won't get promoted unless they are by the votes of the boards. So there's no obsession involved. I don't know but people keeps think the ICC is separate organization with a different bureaucracy when it isn't but that the full members vote on this kinds of decisions and all most all big ones are decided like that.
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/other/content/story/294262.html

 

[LA ICE-E]

The point, really, is that it makes no sense to try and develop either.

Yeah it does because cricket would be richer if it did even if it' small chance they should try.

 

[LA ICE-E]

Ireland are a nation and a domestic side.

West Indies aren't a nation either, and yet they play Test and ODI cricket. Being a nation is not an automatic prerequistite.

The fact still remains that they are a nation while Yorkshire isn't. Both still being a domestic team which Netherlands was too but that doesn't matter.

A "nation" that it is not the same thing as a country, thus the Irish nation is not the same as the Republic of Ireland. Historically the West Indian colonies organized a unified cricket team which vaguely corresponded with the growing sense of nationhood (that ultimately failed when the federation of the colonies collapsed but the team continued as it had before). A similar situation occurred with the Australian team before the federation of Australia in 1901 (except their federation succeeded and Australia is now a unified nation).

 

[LA ICE-E]

I'm tired of this ****, Ireland and Scotland are separate nations and have ODI status. Now ****en deal with it and stop moaning about it and give them a chance that they deserve. Why? Because they qualified for it.

And talks about the ICC just giving membership and certain status just for expansion is wack because there are criteria which have to be met in oder for a promotion or recognition etc. And most of their decisions are taken with the full member boards, so to say things like what richard is saying is plain wrong because I don't think the individual boards are obsessed about expansionism too. Just in case people forgot, expansionism isn't a bad thing. Cricket's quality doesn't go down because the associates have ODI status now, it's the same as it always was with just the associates playing ODI's instead of unofficial games. They played before this too, nothing changed except that they may be little bit better and have ODI status, nothing changed or has to do with the quality of the full members. And to deny the status because it ruins the stats. Well screw the stats. Yeah the stats are a big part of the game but a nation should be denied of recognition or a certain status because it might ruin the stats. The stats isn't bigger than a country having a chance to become a big part of cricket even if the chance is very small.

 

[pasag]

****, 17.

 

[R_D]

Ireland are a nation and a domestic side.

West Indies aren't a nation either, and yet they play Test and ODI cricket. Being a nation is not an automatic prerequistite.

yeah WI might not be a country but its made up of a group of isalnds which are a seperate nation. Still a pre-requsite to be a sperate nation. As much as you guys would like to kick Yorkshire out of England, i'm pretty sure they aren't going to go form a different nation any time soon.

Its pretty much like comparing oranges to apple imho.

 

[Athlai]

yeah WI might not be a country but its made up of a group of isalnds which are a seperate nation. Still a pre-requsite to be a sperate nation. As much as you guys would like to kick Yorkshire out of England, i'm pretty sure they aren't going to go form a different nation any time soon.

Its pretty much like comparing oranges to apple imho.

West Indies is a region made up of a series of islands, several different nations lie in these islands.

 

[PhoenixFire]

17 post string, a record for a normal thread?