*Official* South Africa in West Indies

[WindieWeathers]

Ah, thats a new one "He has a better average because he's been playing for longer" Usually it's the other way round, but no that makes perfect sense....

As for why you wouldn't select Brathwaite for the test team right now, just check out his England tour with the A team so far.

So it's really fair comparing the average of a guy who's played tons of FC games compared to a lad who's just started? yeah sure it is!! ,

And i already said he let himself down IN ENGLAND!!, who have totally different pitches to what he's used to, that doesn't mean he couldn't score some runs for us in his own backyard does it?!!..

P.S. And instead of knocking WI's youngsters maybe you should focus on NZ's instead!, if there's any around that is!! .

 

[WindieWeathers]

I think it's fairly clear he shouldn't be making his debut for at least 2-3 years unless he starts setting the domestic FC scene with consistent centuries. Lil bravo a better prospect atm

I'm almost certain he'll be making his debut for WI within 12 months, he's a sure thing imo and the best batting prospect we've had in years, the England tour doesn't change anything for me.

 

[Teja.]

So it's really fair comparing the average of a guy who's played tons of FC games compared to a lad who's just started? yeah sure it is!! ,

And i already said he let himself down IN ENGLAND!!, who have totally different pitches to what he's used to, that doesn't mean he couldn't score some runs for us in his own backyard does it?!!..

P.S. And instead of knocking WI's youngsters maybe you should focus on NZ's instead!, if there's any around that is!! .

Windie, I request you to stop pointing out people's nationalities in a WI discussion. If you ever do participate in a India/Australia discussion, I don't think people will ask you to go and worry about WI first. Only a request, thanks.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Yeah this is a decent argument. I know that NZ always hurts when a key player is injured let alone 5. But that being said - I do question Barath being on this list given my earlier post and that surely he can't be a key player to the side after 4 innings.

On the Braithwaite question. Let him get more experience is my thought and vote.

To answer the first post you made about Barath, yeah maybe i do go over the top about him but i just believe he's gonna be a class act, we don't have many teenagers scoring tons for us against Australia these days that's for sure, and yes it's as much to do with his average than anything else, he's a batsman that actually takes his time and thinks about what he's doing, unlike the "gung ho" mentality that a lot of our batters have had in the past.

I also added Barath to that list not just because he's one of our best batsman already but he's also an opener which has caused us plenty of problems in this series.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Barath is promising but unproven, Roach hasn't really scared the saffers to date, Sarwan is a class player but hasn't been in the greatest form, while Taylor hasn't exactly looked mega threatening of late either. Edwards as a long-term injury has to be discounted. Parnell for instance, would have been a first choice ahead of Tsotsobe if available. It was a spinners track in Trinidad and the spinners did well but SA has been reasonable at extricating itself from tough positions in recent years in the test arena so we don't know if Taylor and Roach would have made a huge difference. Steyn and Morkel did well to crush their batting on a pitch which didn't really suit them. Steyn's done that a couple of times in India too, so it's not surprising that we're seeing pitches prepared in an endeavour to blunt him.

Doesn't matter what form you think said players are in they are still massive players for us and have done well in Test cricket against most of the top sides, like i said if South Africa were missing five top players they simply wouldn't have come close to winning that first Test, i'm sure most people would agree with that notion.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Windie, I request you to stop pointing out people's nationalities in a WI discussion. If you ever do participate in a India/Australia discussion, I don't think people will ask you to go and worry about WI first. Only a request, thanks.

I take your point on board but if people want to knock our youngsters i think i have a right to ask them about theirs too!! .

 

[WindieWeathers]

And on another note Andre Russell has apparently taken six wickets against Ireland today and also scored 63 runs to save our innings beforehand, my word i really think we have another star in the making man!! , he's tall and fast and i wonder whether we should call him up for this last Test? he's been getting 4 and 5fers all over the place lately and is good enough with the bat to bat in the top six.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Aren't they both in the development side right now? Holder and Gabriel I mean. I don't see what either, and Gabriel in particular, have done to be thrust into 'A' team duty. If talk is true, West Indies will have a consistent 'A' team programme in future, so there will be opportunities there. But if this development programme is the real deal, this is the right process.

I would have liked to have seen Holder go with the A-team but didn't Gabriel take wickets for the A-team against Zimbabwe already? he certainly didn't look out of place so i don't see why he couldn't have done well in England too.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I would have liked to have seen Holder go with the A-team but didn't Gabriel take wickets for the A-team against Zimbabwe already? he certainly didn't look out of place so i don't see why he couldn't have done well in England too.

3-85 in the match, yes. But 7 FC wickets in 4 matches is certainly not enough to leap frog an academy set up into the 2nd team.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

And on another note Andre Russell has apparently taken six wickets against Ireland today and also scored 63 runs to save our innings beforehand, my word i really think we have another star in the making man!! , he's tall and fast and i wonder whether we should call him up for this last Test? he's been getting 4 and 5fers all over the place lately and is good enough with the bat to bat in the top six.

His results have been very encouraging, but WI have had a lot of "stars in the making", yet few actual stars. The closest of recent crops is Bravo and even he hasn't come through as he promised. Let's keep our fingers crossed, because God knows we need Russell to be a cricketer.

 

[WindieWeathers]

His results have been very encouraging, but WI have had a lot of "stars in the making", yet few actual stars. The closest of recent crops is Bravo and even he hasn't come through as he promised. Let's keep our fingers crossed, because God knows we need Russell to be a cricketer.

What do you mean "recent crop" Mr M? because lets remember Barath just turned 20 and Roach is still 21!!, Darren Bravo done well in the few knocks he had in the ODI's and also tore it up for the A-team so i'd think it's only a matter of time before he makes his Test debut, Russell really looks like he could be special, he's been deadly recently and the fact that he can bat well is exciting to see because all too often right now our batting ends when Dwayne Bravo is out at six, having the likes of Russell and even Shilly strengthen our tail can only be a good thing.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

What do you mean "recent crop" Mr M? because ...Barath... Roach... Darren Bravo

And all of them are still "stars in the making". Neither is anywhere near to being a star just yet. Surely you can't argue that.

I'm as hopeful as anyone that all four of them will become top class players, but it's no sure thing. Injuries, among other things, have taught us that with Taylor, Lawson, Edwards and countless others in the past.

Point being that we can only hope they get the management, coaching and support needed to develop into world class cricketers. Gibson looks a good shout for that though.

 

[Prince EWS]

I take your point on board but if people want to knock our youngsters i think i have a right to ask them about theirs too!! .

You don't. It's not a supporter's war; it's a topical discussion. How good the players of the team whoever is posting supports has no relevance to how good the players you're talking about are.

I'm actually going to extend Teja's post to a moderator warning. You can talk about West Indian cricketers as much as you like in this thread but if someone disagrees with you, attacking the team they support is neither relevant nor appropriate, unless they actually make a direct comparison.

 

[WindieWeathers]

You don't. It's not a supporter's war; it's a topical discussion. How good the players of the team whoever is posting supports has no relevance to how good the players you're talking about are.

I'm actually going to extend Teja's post to a moderator warning. You can talk about West Indian cricketers as much as you like in this thread but if someone disagrees with you, attacking the team they support is neither relevant nor appropriate, unless they actually make a direct comparison.

How was it an "attack" though? i said "instead of running down our lot maybe he should focus on his own teams youngsters"!!.. that's not an "attack", an attack is belittling the FC stats of Brathwaite imo!!, but funny enough no-one had a problem with that!! .

 

[Woodster]

To be honest though we had them in all sorts of trouble in the first Test only to throw it away with the bat, if South Africa were missing five key players and we were at full strength do you think they would have won that Test? i very much doubt it, WI missing Barath, Sarwan, Roach, Taylor and Edwards was always gonna hurt us in the end.

Like Bangladesh, WI have the tendency and have enough quality within the side to trouble the top sides for a session or two, the thing about Test cricket is maintaining the standard of cricket and playing consistently well for much longer periods. This is where the lesser sides are falling down against the better teams, of course for a number of reasons.

Naturally any side would miss 5 so called key players, and I would still expect SA to be much more competitve than WI were should that have been the case, whether they would win the game is pure speculation.

No doubt Barath, Sarwan, Roach, Taylor and Edwards available would make this series more competitive, however, this is not a new problem for WI, for years they have failed to get their strongest XI out on a consistent basis, yes there's an element of bad luck, but it is also a situation that has clearly not been addressed.

 

[Flyonthewall]

In which case, it's also poor form that Smith instructed his left-arm spinner to bowl over the wicket to the right hander, pitching the ball way outside leg. And it's poor form to instruct your pacer to bowl a mile outside offstump.

It takes two to tango....

If Shiv and Bravo had gone for the ball, nicked a catch behind, they would've come in for a lot of criticism.

In addition, none of the teams scored at four an over. The Saffer first innings was 3.5, the WI was 3, and the SA second innings was 2.5. Remember, it was Shiv and Bravo batting, not Greenidge and Lloyd....

Your point is true enough, it was essentially negative tactics from South Africa. The only slight problem with your theory is that they scored every bit as slowly against all the other bowlers. There was quite a few deliveries that I saw from the pace bowlers that could/should have been hit for four, but were instead left. You say that there would have been criticism if they had nicked off, but I don't think that there would have been as much criticism as resulted for what happened on Day 4, as such dismissals are far more common occurences than such indolent and negative play as was exhibited by the West Indian batsmen on Day Four. Additionally, I don't think it would have made any difference to the result at all, especially with the rain and South Africa's similar lack of enterprise.

In all fairness, I was slightly out in my assessment of the scoring rate, Windies in fact scored at 3.66 on Day 3. (I was referring to Day 3 only to be honest). However, Shiv and Nash were striking at comfortably over four during their partnership, and on an identical pitch and conditions. And, lest we forget, Shiv scored a Test hundred that was faster than anything Greenidge and Lloyd ever managed, and in far more bowler-friendly conditions and (probably) against a better attack.

Also, at the fact that WW has made precisely 10 out of the 15 posts posted immediately before this post.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Like Bangladesh, WI have the tendency and have enough quality within the side to trouble the top sides for a session or two, the thing about Test cricket is maintaining the standard of cricket and playing consistently well for much longer periods. This is where the lesser sides are falling down against the better teams, of course for a number of reasons.

Naturally any side would miss 5 so called key players, and I would still expect SA to be much more competitve than WI were should that have been the case, whether they would win the game is pure speculation.

No doubt Barath, Sarwan, Roach, Taylor and Edwards available would make this series more competitive, however, this is not a new problem for WI, for years they have failed to get their strongest XI out on a consistent basis, yes there's an element of bad luck, but it is also a situation that has clearly not been addressed.

I agree with a lot of what you've said but unlike Bang and even Pakistan in their last series in Australia we haven't been whitewashed in the Tests!!, just like we wasn't in Australia, despite missing key players as we've discussed, Bang may have their spells but there's still an air of inevitability that they'll get found out, with us though we actually have the talent to get the job done if the players used their heads for once, over the past year and a half we've bowled England out for 50, Australia out for 150 and South Africa out for 350 (having had them 107/5) , if we can finally have a settled batting order without the injuries we might just make that final step up soon.

 

[Woodster]

I agree with a lot of what you've said but unlike Bang and even Pakistan in their last series in Australia we haven't been whitewashed in the Tests!!, just like we wasn't in Australia, despite missing key players as we've discussed, Bang may have their spells but there's still an air of inevitability that they'll get found out, with us though we actually have the talent to get the job done if the players used their heads for once, over the past year and a half we've bowled England out for 50, Australia out for 150 and South Africa out for 350 (having had them 107/5) , if we can finally have a settled batting order without the injuries we might just make that final step up soon.

Like I said, I think there are glimpses of real quality within the WI and should they ever manage to get their strongest side for a lengthy run of games we would have a better idea of exactly where they are up to right now, unfortunately it doesn't seem likely.

Yes they have have had good moments in the last 18 months, sadly that's all they have been, brief, fleeting moments of quality. They currently lack the ability/concentration/necessary skills to play good Test cricket for long enough spells, which is a major contributory factor as to why they have won only a single Test match in that 18 month period.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Like I said, I think there are glimpses of real quality within the WI and should they ever manage to get their strongest side for a lengthy run of games we would have a better idea of exactly where they are up to right now, unfortunately it doesn't seem likely.

Yes they have have had good moments in the last 18 months, sadly that's all they have been, brief, fleeting moments of quality. They currently lack the ability/concentration/necessary skills to play good Test cricket for long enough spells, which is a major contributory factor as to why they have won only a single Test match in that 18 month period.

The problem is though that not many other sides apart from England, Australia, South Africa and India are winning Test matches either, we're not alone in our struggles, but what we can take comfort from is we've given ALL of the top teams we've played recently big problems for spells and have managed to avoid a whitewash, the next step is actually turning our good spells into victories, we did it against England so it's not impossible.

 

[Woodster]

The problem is though that not many other sides apart from England, Australia, South Africa and India are winning Test matches either, we're not alone in our struggles, but what we can take comfort from is we've given ALL of the top teams we've played recently big problems for spells and have managed to avoid a whitewash, the next step is actually turning our good spells into victories, we did it against England so it's not impossible.

You did beat England, unfortunately the following series in England saw you whitewashed 2-0 in England.

I agree that sides such as New Zealand, Pakistan, WI and Bangladesh all share very similar inconsistency problems, and I fully accept WI are not on their own in this regard, far from it. Although you must agree that it will take some time to turn these fortunes around, especially if poor fitness continues. It's tough to turn one Test win in 18 months into consistent victories. Patience and one step at a time. If they manage to draw this series with SA, it will be a fantastic outcome, although very surprising.

I actually thought WI were heading in the right direction around two years ago, but they have continued to stutter, for many reasons and not all cricketing ones.