Official South Africa in New Zealand 2012

Flem274* · Mar 21, 2012

One of the South Africans came here for uni iirc, but I'm not sure who.

Wagner moved because of the quota system apparently.

But yeah, skimming scarily close to England territory atm with Kruger, Brownlie and Wagner all likely to end up in the same team. All the homegrown players to get their acts together imo. :ph34r:

Mike5181 · Mar 21, 2012

Neil Young said:
Well Ronchi himself was born in NZ so surely that trumps Brownlie's old man. But they both came to NZ for the same reason; to play cricket at a higher level. Nowt about loyalty to our flag.

edti: Just realised your point but for me Brownlie and Ronchi are in the same boat. KVW and Elliot are different as they could well have moved for lifestyle reasons and not purely for cricket. Not sure.

Yeah, I'm not comparing the two I was just pointing out that he has New Zealand blood in him. I sort of have respect for guys like Neil Wagner. I'm not sure if he has relatives over here or what but to just pack your bags at twenty two and decide to spend most likely the rest of your life in another country is pretty ballsy even if you are faced with limited opportunites in your home country.

Both Brownlie and Wagner have made significant improvements to their games since coming over here as well.

Flem274* · Mar 21, 2012

Brownlie must have, since mediocre club cricketers don't suddenly score fifties against the country of their birth on green tops overnight.

I forgive Brownlie for being Australian somewhat because watching him defy his home country who missed out on him was pretty funny.

Must have been a late bloomer.

Howsie · Mar 21, 2012

Prince EWS said:
I view it kind of differently, myself. Ronchi was born in New Zealand and has always been a New Zealander; he has proper New Zealand heritage, he has a Maori tattoo, his team-mates have always considered him as "the Kiwi" and I've always thought of him as having a nationality of "Australia/New Zealand" in my own head. The fact that he chose Australia first and is now moving on to his second choice because he failed isn't really good for the game IMO, but it's better for the game than players with no real ties to their second choice country moving there as adults and gaining eligibility through residency. Van Wyk and Brownlie bother me more than Ronchi; the fact that the former two never played for their first choice countries doesn't change the fact that they were their first choice countries, and if they'd been able to, they would have. The key difference is that they just moved essentially at random while Ronchi at least has proper New Zealand ties before adulthood.

I was born in Australia, does that mean I've always been an Australian?

If Luke Ronchi had always seen himself as a Kiwi he should've moved back here when he was younger, not carved out a 10 year career for himself before jumping ship because he wasn't good enough. Take Daryl Mitchell. He moved over to Australia with his family as a teenager, played all his junior cricket in WA, was ingrained in the system over there, but moved back at 19 because he had no desire in playing for Australia.

Ronchi's situation annoys me the most, it just shouldn't be allowed to happen IMO. Van Wyk's much the same. I don't really have a problem with either Wagner nor Brownlie. Wagner in that he moved over here fairly young and has been asked on more then one occasion by CSA if he'd like to go back, so it's not a "I'm not good enough for my home country thing" like it is for your Van Wyk's and co.

Howsie · Mar 21, 2012

Flem274* said:
Brownlie must have, since mediocre club cricketers don't suddenly score fifties against the country of their birth on green tops overnight.

Or maybe he just slipped through the cracks? A player who wasn't a particularly gifted age group player who then suffered a few major injuries in his early 20's fails to get noticed is hardly an unbelievable story. Not as unbelievable as the other one anyway, club hack who then goes on to play international cricket in less then a year.

Neil Young · Mar 21, 2012

Howsie said:
Ronchi's situation annoys me the most, it just shouldn't be allowed to happen IMO. Van Wyk's much the same. I don't really have a problem with either Wagner nor Brownlie. Wagner in that he moved over here fairly young and has been asked on more then one occasion by CSA if he'd like to go back, so it's not a "I'm not good enough for my home country thing" like it is for your Van Wyk's and co.

Why does Ronchi annoy you more than Brownlie? They are both chancers. As I say, KVW could well have moved for personal reasons as much as professional ones (any idea?) whereas there is no doubt that Brownlie and Ronchi are mercenaries. I don't have any particular grievance with either of them but they are mercenaries for sure.

I actually think Brownlie will be found out sooner rather than later. I am happy for that particular view to be shoved down my throat as he racks up test ton after test ton, of course.

Kippax · Mar 21, 2012

Neil Young said:
KVW could well have moved for personal reasons as much as professional ones

BusinessDay - Van Wyk says race was not a factor in his leaving SA

"When I left SA I wasn’t just looking for opportunities in cricket; I also wanted to broaden my horizons as a person. New Zealanders have been outstanding in the opportunities they have given me as a cricketer, and the quality of life my family and I have here is outstanding."

Van Wyk said he "honestly, really" considered himself a New Zealander. "I get the mickey taken out of me for my accent quite a lot, but I love being here and I’m extremely appreciative of the opportunities New Zealand has given me," he said with a distinctive Kiwi twang.

"It was the proudest moment of my life to walk out and wear that black cap. This is where I belong."

Mike5181 · Mar 21, 2012

Kippax said:
BusinessDay - Van Wyk says race was not a factor in his leaving SA

"When I left SA I wasn’t just looking for opportunities in cricket; I also wanted to broaden my horizons as a person. New Zealanders have been outstanding in the opportunities they have given me as a cricketer, and the quality of life my family and I have here is outstanding."

Van Wyk said he "honestly, really" considered himself a New Zealander. "I get the mickey taken out of me for my accent quite a lot, but I love being here and I’m extremely appreciative of the opportunities New Zealand has given me," he said with a distinctive Kiwi twang.

"It was the proudest moment of my life to walk out and wear that black cap. This is where I belong."

Fair enough then. Don't have a problem with it if he feels like that.

Howsie · Mar 21, 2012

Neil Young said:
Why does Ronchi annoy you more than Brownlie? They are both chancers. As I say, KVW could well have moved for personal reasons as much as professional ones (any idea?) whereas there is no doubt that Brownlie and Ronchi are mercenaries. I don't have any particular grievance with either of them but they are mercenaries for sure.

I actually think Brownlie will be found out sooner rather than later. I am happy for that particular view to be shoved down my throat as he racks up test ton after test ton, of course.

Because he's actually played for Australia, simple really.

Neil Young · Mar 21, 2012

Howsie said:
Because he's actually played for Australia, simple really.

Fair enough. I guess your beef is with the system then. And I probably agree with you there.

Scaly piscine · Mar 21, 2012

Mike5181 said:
The importance of batting is just as important as the bowling. I don't get how selecting a proper batting line up automatically means you are taking a negative approach to the test match. Dean Brownlie could contribute to our chances of winning a test match just as much as a fourth seamer.

It's not being negative, it's simply that a 5th bowler in NZ's situation adds a lot more than an extra batsman. NZ's depth in seam bowling is far greater than that in batting. It would be a minor miracle if the extra batsman averages 30. Obvious Boult bats a little bit, so you're getting the difference, bearing in mind someone will still have to bat with the weak tail and will lose out compared to their average whilst Boult has managed to score some runs hitting out at the end. The extra bowling makes the other bowlers more effective and should contribute themselves. Gillespie in particular is liable to have a bad day and Vettori just isn't that much of a threat.

Mike5181 · Mar 21, 2012

Scaly piscine said:
It's not being negative, it's simply that a 5th bowler in NZ's situation adds a lot more than an extra batsman. NZ's depth in seam bowling is far greater than that in batting. It would be a minor miracle if the extra batsman averages 30. Obvious Boult bats a little bit, so you're getting the difference, bearing in mind someone will still have to bat with the weak tail and will lose out compared to their average whilst Boult has managed to score some runs hitting out at the end. The extra bowling makes the other bowlers more effective and should contribute themselves. Gillespie in particular is liable to have a bad day and Vettori just isn't that much of a threat.

Yeah, because Southee and Arnel in the first and second tests respectively added so much more than Dean Brownlie could contribute. Playing an extra bowler because one of them might have a bad day is negative thinking.

Kippax · Mar 21, 2012

Scaly piscine · Mar 21, 2012

Mike5181 said:
Yeah, because Southee and Arnel in the first and second tests respectively added so much more than Dean Brownlie could contribute. Playing an extra bowler because one of them might have a bad day is negative thinking.

Brownlie is one of your best batsman so the comparison is ridiculous. New Zealand would be losing their weakest batsman, such as Nicol or Guptill - who've scored about as many as Boult would. Arnel and Southee were simply poor selections. Guptill gets a gig because the reserve batsmen are poor, NZ have reasonable bowling options in reserve.

Meridio · Mar 21, 2012

Reckon we'll be in for a soft, spongy pitch - we've had three days of absolute trash weather down here this week, and today is looking similar; I doubt the groundsman's been able to take the covers off at all to prepare the pitch.

Having said that though, just read this article which suggests they'd already done the bulk of the preparation earlier, which could make it a bit dry: Cricket | Squally Wellington weather has everyone... | Stuff.co.nz

Am sitting on the fence a bit on the whole 4/5 bowler scenario. On the whole would prefer Boult plays; however I do think Bracewell at 8 makes for a very long tail. Starting to come around to the idea of Flynn replacing Guptill actually.

Flem274* · Mar 21, 2012

Howsie said:
"I'm not good enough for my home country thing" like it is for your Van Wyk's and co.

I have no idea what SA's reserve keepers are like, but if I were them I'd be pretty annoyed to see Kruger lasting a reasonable amount of time against my two world class bowlers while Boucher gets out for not much.

Woodster · Mar 21, 2012

Depending which way you are inclined to go, you can make reasonable cases for the sixth batsman or the fifth bowler, my persuasion is to try and set the game up with a stronger batting unit. Ok yes, that batsman may fail in both innings, just as likely as one of the five bowlers having zero impact and going round the park. I think NZ have got a little obsessed in focusing on getting 20 wickets, yes it's more than likely you need to do that to win the game, but it's no good picking a team to take 20 wickets if your batsman can only muster 350 runs in the two innings.

How much impact an extra batsman will make is negotiable, but I'd be much happier seeing Vettori down at seven or eight, and Flynn and Brownlie ensconsed in the top six.

Immenso · Mar 21, 2012

Meridio said:
Am sitting on the fence a bit on the whole 4/5 bowler scenario. On the whole would prefer Boult plays; however I do think Bracewell at 8 makes for a very long tail. Starting to come around to the idea of Flynn replacing Guptill actually.

My thoughts as well. I would like, in theory, the 4 seamers plus Vettori. But perhaps need to be flexible when form/injuries mean that not all parts of the plan are falling into place (long tail, 'keeper's batting, piss-poor top5)

Even though Van Wyk is probably as good a bat as Watling, my mind is struggling as I do think of Watling as a specialist bat/reserve opener down at 6 or 7 who also takes the gloves.

Bracewell still struggling at 8, and Southee's loss of form has disrupted the balance. I had hopes that he would miraculously find his batting fortitude at 9.

But looking longer term; I have hopes Latham could provide depth in the Watling role. While Henry or Wagner would be useful number 9's. But for this particular next match, I'll concede the team will probably be stengthened by Brownlie at 6 and Boult as 12th man. But medium and long term, I like the 5 bowlers strategy.

Immenso · Mar 21, 2012

Mike5181 said:
Yeah, because Southee and Arnel in the first and second tests respectively added so much more than Dean Brownlie could contribute. Playing an extra bowler because one of them might have a bad day is negative thinking.

I want to say that I think Southee was 3rd seamer in Dunedin, in fact I think he opened the bowling in the first innings. (slightly suprisingly considering Boult opened in Hobart)

sonnench · Mar 21, 2012

Flem274*;2813680[B said:
]I have no idea what SA's reserve keepers are like[/B], but if I were them I'd be pretty annoyed to see Kruger lasting a reasonable amount of time against my two world class bowlers while Boucher gets out for not much.

Boucher's getting on, but is still the greatest wicket keeper specialist of all time, so I don't see how they would be annoyed to be honest.

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