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*Official* South Africa in India, Sep/Oct 2019

GoodAreasShane

Cricketer Of The Year
For what it's worth, and not many people more than just you in this thread will probably even get what I'm on about, but the CWPL recency-weighted and opposition-standardised averages estimate Rabada as being worth a Test average of 12.32 and Nortje 8.21 at the moment. So there's definitely an element of Nortje playing weaker opposition to get those FC runs, even if Rabada has flattered to deceive a bit with the bat so far in his career.
Fair enough then, makes sense. Can never recall Nortje really doing much with the bat with the Warriors, stands to reason that a lot of his runs are from bashing weak attacks for Eastern Province in the 3 day stuff
 

Daemon

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It's not even spin or grubby wickets.

Starting to realise how it's so much easier for a bowler when the rest of your attack is good as well. Makes you respect the Chamindas and Hadlees that much more.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Which brings us to the point how much several players of the past(Vaas, Dev, Streak and many others) suffered because of lack of support. A bit shocking to see a few here reluctant to adjust 2-3 runs to their bowling averages if they had better support.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Yea, the whole thing clearly works both ways. McGrath was obviously one of the best bowlers of all time, but he had fantastic support from the pace department alone (and then the spinners/Warne). The pacemen not creating havoc in the batting line up would then affect how Warne was viewed by the batsmen as a result, and their figures would suffer as a result (which is not entirely, but partly, why top spinners sometimes don't have great stats outside the subcontinent - because their respective team's pace attack is poor).
The whole thing is cyclical. You need some top front line bowlers (your McGraths and your Warnes), and then you need someone like Gillespie, Fleming etc to back them up. You can't just have, in isolation, one good/great bowler and then bad support. Alternatively, you can't just have a bunch of support bowlers and no top bowler to lead them.
Srinath wasn't a bad bowler, but he never had the support and as a result his figures look far worse than I remember him as a bowler (injures etc not withstanding).
As I said in another thread, you just have to look at the Indian bowling line up right to see the progression.

Which pretty much makes Hadlee the best bowler of all time, I reckon.
 
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Daemon

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Which brings us to the point how much several players of the past(Vaas, Dev, Streak and many others) suffered because of lack of support. A bit shocking to see a few here reluctant to adjust 2-3 runs to their bowling averages if they had better support.
It's just really subjective. Of course there are times (especially when you play weaker opposition) where if you're much better than your teammates you probably get a bigger share of the wickets. That's why Murali's might not need to be adjusted that much. But someone like Hadlee who would have had to bowl through his bad days will suffer on an overall basis.

I don't know how to quantify it, but it's just something to consider when rating players.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
You know Cairns and Chatfield were pretty good support for Hadlee. It’s just the latter was so much better it looks like he was on his own but he wasn’t.
 

Daemon

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You know Cairns and Chatfield were pretty good support for Hadlee. It’s just the latter was so much better it looks like he was on his own but he wasn’t.
Yeah they were probably adequate support tbf. Maybe someone like Dev is a better example.
 

Daemon

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Can't believe they've been talking about Faf not batting up the order for literally 30 minutes. jfc.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Scary that only one batsman in the top six scored a 50. One of the flattest day 3 wickets you will find. No way India will enforce the follow on. Their largest test victory by runs is on.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Scary that only one batsman in the top six scored a 50. One of the flattest day 3 wickets you will find. No way India will enforce the follow on. Their largest test victory by runs is on.
Don't underestimate this South African tailend though. So far this series they've been objectively better than their top 5... and that includes a Dean Elgar 150.
 

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