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***Official*** South Africa in England

Should Freddy be included in team for the second Test?


  • Total voters
    44

gio

U19 Cricketer
It's really hard what to think about England at the moment. The side has got talent, and has shown it now and again. But they are far too inconsistent. The batsman go from scoring 500+ at Lord to a horrible performance in both innings at Headingley. We need to find the reasons for this. Is it complacency? Are the batsman too cosy in their roles as centrally contracted players? Or is poor form? Technical flaws? Certainly, something needs to be said. Changes may well be the only way to give these players a kick up the backside.

Strauss doesn't look the same player of a few years ago. He's battled away since his recall, but he looked out of his depth at times against Morkel and Steyn. Vaughan is obviously going through a terrible run of form, and you have to wonder if he'll come out of it - he's getting on after all. I'm a big fan of Vaughan, he's one of my favourite all-time cricketers, but we can't carrying him for too much longer. And whilst Collingwood batted brilliantly yesteday, there's still a doubt whether or not he is capable at this level.

I'm happy with Cook, Pietersen and Bell. Once a few issues are ironed out, I'm sure they'll be consistently in the runs. Flintoff can do it with the bat, he just needs time in the middle. Ambrose looks out of his depth, but with so many people already tried, we're running out of options. I just wish Davies could make a double hundred and force his way in. From what I've seen of him (which isn't much), but mainly what I've read, he's probably England's best hope. In the short term, perhaps Foster deserves another go.

The bowling, as Boycott has said, is honest and hard working, but is short of being world class. Anderson and Sidebottom are in the right conditions, but those conditions are rare outside Trent Bridge. A Simon Jones recall will be cried out for by the papers and the public. He would offer something a bit different, and a bit of variety in the attack would be a good thing. Not sure if he is ready however.

The spinner is a different issue. I am of the old fashioned view whereby a spinner should always be part of a bowling attack. Panesar has done OK in his career to date, but today when it really mattered, he didn't perform. I think he should retain his place, but some work really needs to go into his fielding. It can be embarrasing at times.

As it stands, I think this England side has the potential to do well. But there has to be a considered approach by the selectors and the management. Can England really be successful with both Sidebottom and Anderson as part of an attack? And are Strauss, Vaughan and Collingwood likely to perform at the highest level for a sustained period? It's difficult to tell what's a lack of form, and what's a lack of talent (be it mental or technical). Hopefully the selectors will get it right.
 

Napier16

Banned
Gifted? you're starting to sound like an idiot. Missing the stumps by LESS THAN A 1cm is not gifted.QUOTE]
It was Aleem Dar, who is apparently able to judge such small margins as he gave Anderson a LBW on Morkell which pitched about that far inside leg stump.

So I expect consistency out of such a great judge of distance.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Some have mentioned that Sidebottom needs a rest. Would this, perhaps, be a good opportunity to see if Simon Jones' body is yet up to coping with Test Cricket? There is nothing left to lose, and as I believe he will tour in the winter it would be good if he had some Test overs under his belt.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
If we're going to play a 5-man attack we'd have to drop a batsman. I can't see Vaughan getting the arse &, after Colly's inspired face-saver, none of the others really quite deserve to be ejected.

Even if we did drop (say) Bell for one twattish dismissal too many we'd need to bolster up the lower order, which leads us to Prior & that way madness lies, obv.

Patel for Bell & bring in a fourth seamer for Monty, maybe? I'd prefer a more solid spinning option than a bloke with 30-ish FC wickets in total, but desperate times & all that...
I don't really know much about Patel obviously but on paper he seems like a good option, better than the likes of Shah and Bopara.

So something like:

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Colly
Patel
Flintoff
Ambrose
Harmison
Anderson
Jones
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Some have mentioned that Sidebottom needs a rest. Would this, perhaps, be a good opportunity to see if Simon Jones' body is yet up to coping with Test Cricket? There is nothing left to lose, and as I believe he will tour in the winter it would be good if he had some Test overs under his belt.
...except Jones himself. He should prove that he can handle a full County season before he's asked to handle Test cricket. There's such a long gap between this Test and the winter tour that Test overs under his belt is hardly a relevant issue.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I don't really know much about Patel obviously but on paper he seems like a good option, better than the likes of Shah and Bopara.

So something like:

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Colly
Patel
Flintoff
Ambrose
Harmison
Anderson
Jones
Anderson to bat above Harmison IMO. Also, do you really think Sidebottom should be dropped? Has enough credit in the bank at this point for mine.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
...except Jones himself. He should prove that he can handle a full County season before he's asked to handle Test cricket. There's such a long gap between this Test and the winter tour that Test overs under his belt is hardly a relevant issue.
Well I just meant it would be a good chance to look at him. He will have had almost 4 months of the season under his belt. Just a thought really.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I feel its important to often express my long held (and oft disagreed with) belief that there cannot be too much batting and that every potential partnership between capable batsmen is like gold.

England only posted a reasonable total due to playing 6 batsmen and having a deep line-up and SA were only capable of chasing the total down as they had a very capable player at 7 that gave them 1 extra (and critical) partnership.

Both in Eng and SAs second innings there was no plan B without the batting depth after losing early wickets. Bating deep to at least 7 is a requisit (sp?) for any team with pretentions of being good.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I feel its important to often express my long held (and oft disagreed with) belief that there cannot be too much batting and that every potential partnership between capable batsmen is like gold.

England only posted a reasonable total due to playing 6 batsmen and having a deep line-up and SA were only capable of chasing the total down as they had a very capable player at 7 that gave them 1 extra (and critical) partnership.

Both in Eng and SAs second innings there was no plan B without the batting depth after losing early wickets. Bating deep to at least 7 is a requisit (sp?) for any team with pretentions of being good.
Agree with all of this, the problem for us is that even though we have players right down to 8 with Test hundreds to their name, no more than two of the top six have batted well in any one innings. With that batting depth that we do have (as we had Broad at 8 in the first two games) we should be racking up big scores consistently.

Skewing off to a different point here, but if only we had had the bottle to go through them a second time at Lord's :(
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Yeah, should have realised the Sidebottom thing, hinted myself at him missing out through injury as well, for shame!
 

gio

U19 Cricketer
Some have mentioned that Sidebottom needs a rest. Would this, perhaps, be a good opportunity to see if Simon Jones' body is yet up to coping with Test Cricket? There is nothing left to lose, and as I believe he will tour in the winter it would be good if he had some Test overs under his belt.
We won't have long to find out! Squad's announced tomorrow. Sidebottom did look laboured, so I'd leave him out for The Oval. His success in the last year means he should be retained when fit again. I think the right way forward is for Flintoff to bat at 6, and to play a 5 man attack. But it would be extraordinarily harsh on Collingwood to be dropped.

So for The Oval:

Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Pietersen, Bell, Collingwood, Flintoff, Ambrose, Anderson, Jones, Panesar.

In the long term, I'd like to see Flintoff @ 6 with Broad at 8 replacing Collingwood or even Strauss. But that depends on Broad improving as a bowler. For Ambrose, it's pretty much last chance saloon. He needs an innings of class very soon, prefrably in South London.
 

Napier16

Banned
But it would be extraordinarily harsh on Collingwood to be dropped.

Collingwood, Flintoff, Ambrose, Anderson, Jones, Panesar.

.
Long tail, and disagree that it would be harsh.

It was similar to when Hussein finally got that ODI 100 after a zillion unpunished failures and did that silly pointing at the #3 on the back of his shirt thing to Bothom in the box.

It didn't suddenly make him worth his spot, and nor does it Collingwood. All it proved is that he won't fail every single time, just the vast majority.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Just took the dog for a walk, and have decided Monty should be dropped.

I actually think he did enough to win us the match today, if smith had gone we'd of won IMHO. Yet his excessive, irritating and pointless appealing for everything is counter-productive. I think at times I only defend him so much because of the "blame monty for everything" attitude of someone around here.

He needs to sort it, it's becoming a serious detriment to himself and England, and it borders on bad sportsmanship. If dropping him is a way to get it in his head, then so be it.

I don't know who we replace him with, none of the names inspire me, except Jones, but I'm just afraid he'll break again.

Honestly can't believe people are talking about Tredwell and Swann, though. Batty and Dawson reheated, IMHO.

Agreed that Sidey and Freddie shouldn't play at the Oval too, both looked dead on their feet. So that's everyone but Jimmy dropped, and he was terrible at the end there.
 

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