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*Official* Second Test at Lords

Uppercut

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Yeah I couldn't agree more. Very flabby thinking from Nasser but it's the sort of logic that does, amazingly, hold sway from time to time in the selectors' minds.

I wouldn't want us to play 5 bowlers at Lord's. So if Freddie is out, I'd bring in Bell, Harmison and Onions to replace him, Broad and Panesar. I would bat Bell at 6 where he's done ok in the past.
There's a case- albeit one I highly disagree with- to play Harmison ahead of Broad at Lord's. But what case exactly does Onions have to play ahead of Broad? Everyone is in such a rush to discount Broad's excellent bowling in the two West Indies tests, why do Onions's performances hold so much water?

Ftr, I'd play both.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Yeah I couldn't agree more. Very flabby thinking from Nasser but it's the sort of logic that does, amazingly, hold sway from time to time in the selectors' minds.

I wouldn't want us to play 5 bowlers at Lord's. So if Freddie is out, I'd bring in Bell, Harmison and Onions to replace him, Broad and Panesar. I would bat Bell at 6 where he's done ok in the past.
I'd agree in most circumstances, TBH, but Lords is verrrry flat pitch - presuming it hasn't changed signficantly, of course. I'd certainly back Broad to make significant contributions with the bat on such a surface and I think the bowlers will have their work cut out for them; I reckon five could be handy.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
To me in depends on the surface for England if it is a flat track I might want the extra bowler.If it has something for the bowlers then I might want the extra batsmen.
I realise that this sounds negative, but my current thinking is that I would be fairly happy for us to draw at Lord's, with vast numbers of runs being scored by a long England batting line-up (6 batsmen plus Prior). If there's a bit of seam movement you'd hope that Harmison, Onions and Anderson ought to be able to exploit it.

Then, England can regroup before going off to Edgbaston at the end of the month. England often play well there, and the Crims can expect about as raucus a reception as they will find anywhere in the world. That will be followed by Headingley and the Oval where again you'd hope England would stand a reasonable chance of winning.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
There's a case- albeit one I highly disagree with- to play Harmison ahead of Broad at Lord's. But what case exactly does Onions have to play ahead of Broad? Everyone is in such a rush to discount Broad's excellent bowling in the two West Indies tests, why do Onions's performances hold so much water?

Ftr, I'd play both.

I'm undecided about Broad. My "bat for 5 days" masterplan for Lord's would certainly be bolstered by playing him ahead of either Harmison or Onions. I have a feeling that Onions might enjoy bowling at Lord's, but I can't back it up with any stats. As for Harmison I have to admit that I'm starting to fall for the hype. I know it's wrong but I just can't help myself.
 

Uppercut

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I'd agree in most circumstances, TBH, but Lords is verrrry flat pitch - presuming it hasn't changed signficantly, of course. I'd certainly back Broad to make significant contributions with the bat on such a surface and I think the bowlers will have their work cut out for them; I reckon five could be handy.
Michael Atherton in today's Times said that he was at the ground yesterday and the pitch was lush, green and damp. The one used for the West Indies test was very favourable to fast bowlers- but since that game ended in three days costing the ECB a lucrative Saturday at Lord's, they may decide to give the strip a Brazilian and play out another draw.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
There's a case- albeit one I highly disagree with- to play Harmison ahead of Broad at Lord's. But what case exactly does Onions have to play ahead of Broad? Everyone is in such a rush to discount Broad's excellent bowling in the two West Indies tests, why do Onions's performances hold so much water?
In that case, isn't it Harmison replacing Broad?

Onions is ahead of him in the pecking order, so is replacing Panesar, and Bell for Flintoff?
 

superkingdave

Hall of Fame Member
Should have called up Patel instead of Bell imo, then we could have had the option to play 4 seamers even if Flintoff is unavailable, plus we have the option to eat the Australians if things go badly. To that end it might have been worth replacing the out of form Cook with Robert Key.
 

Uppercut

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In that case, isn't it Harmison replacing Broad?

Onions is ahead of him in the pecking order, so is replacing Panesar, and Bell for Flintoff?
Well, you're playing Onions and not playing Broad. What's the reasoning behind that?
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Should have called up Patel instead of Bell imo, then we could have had the option to play 4 seamers even if Flintoff is unavailable, plus we have the option to eat the Australians if things go badly. To that end it might have been worth replacing the out of form Cook with Robert Key.
:laugh:
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Interesting contradiction there, if it's clear that he's more dangerous, how would it be hard to pick him?
As for being robotic in their selections, I think it's more the fact that they've seen what he's about and he's clearly not fit enough or something

No contradiction. It is clear Sidebottom once fit would offer more of a wicket-taking threat than Onions. But its just either he isn't fit or the selectors & flowe are being robotic in their preference to Onions ATM, & are we in the public aren't being told everything about Siebottom TBH

Sidebottom's recent comments, sort of vindicates that.


(as shown by the fact that in spite of being in the initial 17 man squad, he wasn't then deemed good enough for even the Lions side)
I dont know why they didn't play him TBH. I thought it was very stupid to play Onions "the new bowler" vs AUS so early in the tour. When Sidebottom was the one who needed the 4-day cricket.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
It does mean that you have to put up with a below-par keeper, though. Personally I'd have Foster in the side with Prior a specialist 6. Particularly when the fifth bowler is someone as fundamentally useless as Monty Panesar.

You can debate what the best option is, but I'm criticising the reasoning behind aspects of the English public. Nasser Hussain's argument for a five-man attack was that "it was the winning blueprint from 2005".
Theoretcially 6 batsmen (Prior as one), Flintoff 7, Foster 8 would be ENG best team. But unforuntely given Fred's injury record it would be suicidal to pick him as one of 4 bowlers.

So Eng just have to hope Prior keeps improving with the gloves, since 5 bowlers (once Fred is fit) will always have to play.
 

pup11

International Coach
I wouldn't say they were "pretty damn good" tbf. The England 1st innings batting was incredibly wasteful and careless and they mostly got themselves out. The Aussie bowling looked a bit flat to me, although of course the pitch didn't particularly suit them.

The Aussies then batted supremely well and it was the lead they achieved, and the no-win situation that the English batsmen were therefore placed in on the 4th and 5th days of the game, that produced the wickets in the 2nd innings. It was a classic case of the Aussie batsmen taking English wickets.

Johnson in particular had a puzzling match. His bowling yesterday was at times unbelievably bad. Yes he took wickets and should have had Broad first ball, but I'm sure he can bowl a huge amount better than that.

I don't want to be unfair on the Aussie bowlers, they outbowled England for sure, but I think that they will need to improve in the coming Tests. I expect that they will do so, particularly if they continue to have the luxury of their batsmen racking up massive totals.
TBH, I called the Australian bowling at Cardiff "pretty damn good" considering a lot of things, to start with the bowling attack for that game was very inexperienced, and on top of that they were playing their first Ashes test, and that too away from home.

If things weren't bad enough, they had to bowl on a truly placid track which provided them hardly any assistance, and to their credit they bowled with a lot of patience and skill, the only negative one can find in their performance is that, they were pretty ordinary with the second new-ball in both the innings, which pretty much cost them the game.

You are true with your assessment regarding Johnson, he didn't bowl as well as he could have, but he contributed decently enough, and more importantly as a bowling group, Johnson, Siddle, Hauritz and Hilfenhaus all backed each other, and contributed to team's cause at some point or the other.
 

Uppercut

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Theoretcially 6 batsmen (Prior as one), Flintoff 7, Foster 8 would be ENG best team. But unforuntely given Fred's injury record it would be suicidal to pick him as one of 4 bowlers.

So Eng just have to hope Prior keeps improving with the gloves, since 5 bowlers (once Fred is fit) will always have to play.
Bit of a myth, this. When was the last time Flintoff had to stop bowling halfway through a match due to injury?
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Bit of a myth, this. When was the last time Flintoff had to stop bowling halfway through a match due to injury?
Never but, ENG have never played has part of a 4-man attack since IND 2001 if my memory is correct. It still would be suicidal to play in a 4-man attack since it very well & happen.

Oh vs WI the other day in Antigua he stopped bowling part a period on the last day, but wasn't exaclty half-way through a match.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Well, you're playing Onions and not playing Broad. What's the reasoning behind that?
Might have something to do with the fact that Onions is the leading FC wicket taker this season and is currently averaging 20 in test cricket. Like it or not, there was never any reason for Onions to be left out. He has far more money in the bank for his selection than anyone other than Anderson.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Bit of a myth, this. When was the last time Flintoff had to stop bowling halfway through a match due to injury?
Bit irrelevant because Freddie would run up to the wicket and bowl on one leg if he had to.

Doesn't change the fact that he would be half as effective on that one leg.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Is anyone else sick and tired of hearing about England's win-loss record without Flintoff since the last Ashes?

Obviously their record is likely to be better, given the series that hes missed were against NZ (home and away), WI-twice(home), 2nd string Pakistan (home), India (home), Sri Lanka (Away).

And the series that he played in: Ashes(away), SA (home), India-twice (away), Pakistan (away), Sri Lanka (home), West Indies (away).

So the series he missed were 5 home series and 2 away series against 2 bottom of the table teams and one that was essentially just as bad.
And the series that hes played involved 2 home series and 5 away series which involved playing mostly the top nations in test cricket.

Yeah so England's record is worse with him than without him? You dont say Athers? Someone should give the guy who pulled up this statistic the sherlock holmes award for telling us the obvious.
 
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four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
Might have something to do with the fact that Onions is the leading FC wicket taker this season and is currently averaging 20 in test cricket. Like it or not, there was never any reason for Onions to be left out. He has far more money in the bank for his selection than anyone other than Anderson.
Broad performed slightly less well than Onions in the test series against the WI. Broad took 12 wickets at 30 with 1 5-fer and Onions 10 wickets at 20 with 1 5-fer.

And as for comparing their FC wickets for the season, how can you do that when Broad has only played once for Nottinghamshire? (And got seven wickets in the match ftr).
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Broad performed slightly less well than Onions in the test series against the WI. Broad took 12 wickets at 30 with 1 5-fer and Onions 10 wickets at 20 with 1 5-fer.

And as for comparing their FC wickets for the season, how can you do that when Broad has only played once for Nottinghamshire? (And got seven wickets in the match ftr).
If someone has not done it then how can you claim him as an equal or better to someone who has? Onions has taken FC wickets, Broad hasnt. Broad failed in the first test, Onions didnt play. Broad has had a mediocre test career so far, Onions is unproven. Unless you are a real conservative, the facts are that there is more going for Onion's selection than Broad ATM.
 

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