Official Rugby Thread

[Goughy]

Brumby, I know you follow both codes. If Sam Tomkins was to move to Union-- as some have suggested may happen, what position would he play? The positions he plays in League dont appear to be the easiest transition.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Brumby, I know you follow both codes. If Sam Tomkins was to move to Union-- as some have suggested may happen, what position would he play? The positions he plays in League dont appear to be the easiest transition.

I'd guess full-back as that seems to be where the Warriors have mainly used him this year. Decent pace and decent kicking game, but not quite good enough to go straight into fly-half in union.

 

[Somerset]

The answer is really one of two main parts; partly one of rugby philosophy and partly one of rule interpretation.

Traditionally (and still currently) there has been more of an emphasis on forward play in the NH; the scrum and the set piece are viewed as genuine attacking weapons. Even France, home of the lavishly gifted devil-may-care back, has had some fearsome packs over the years.

This had lead to a veneration of possession; the rolling maul cannot be used without the ball, so more men are commited to the breakdown to ensure the pill is kept hold of. This is why often England (especially versus the Wallabies were the extremes seem most marked) will have far more possession than their SH opponents, yet one comes away from the game with the feeling that they still created fewer line breaks & chances to score (more men at the breakdown = fewer active in defence).

The why is probably the weather; winters in northern Europe aren't conducive to running rugby or safe handling of the ball. This has created a tradition that venerates physicality over skill; we prefer the bludgeon to the rapier (forwards, self included, talk disparagingly of the "girls" in the backs) and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. As an aside it isn't coincidental that three of England's centre options in Flutey, Hape & Tuilagi aren't exactly native sons of John Bull; we genuinely struggle to produce ball-players up here.

The interpretation bit is how the games are refereed. SH refs tend to be more generous in the amount of time they allow tackled players to dispose of the ball and what goes on in the recess of the ruck. A good openside flanker (the truffle pigs of rugby possession) always opperates on the very edge of legality, but the leeway granted to some by SH refs seems, to one raised on NH interpretations, occasionally excessive. Richie McCaw, to name the elephant in the room, whilst respected and envied, is definitely seen as a ref's favourite, to put it politely.

I think thats an excellent breakdown of the general difference in approaches between NH and SH sides. At the end of the day, the best way to win any sport is to play to your strengths and inhibit as many of your opponent's weaknesses - whether those strengths be determined by the players you possess, the conditions, etc. I'd comment more but not having the ability to watch NH sides play besides during World Cups and against the All Blacks makes it difficult to really analysis the NH sides' approaches against one another, and whether that differs to their matches against the ABs. I'd say with regards to the refereeing, that the standard of NZ and Australian referees is poor in general so I've found it difficult to say that NH referees are stricter than their SH counterparts - that could well be down to just having a better grasp of the laws, or at least the really technical aspects of the game.

 

[Somerset]

Haha, went to bed at halftime, wasn't the most inspiring game (and it was 2am tbf)

I didn't stay up to watch the Tri Nations game last night, watched the replay this morning instead - a good decision as it turned out as I really failed to enjoy the match. A shame, given recent Australia vs South Africa encounters have been excellent (in fact all of the matches in South Africa last year were fantastic). Be really interesting to see how a slightly weakened AB side fare next weekend against a South African outfit that are looking less likely to retain their WC title after each performance.

 

[TT Boy]

I didn't stay up to watch the Tri Nations game last night, watched the replay this morning instead - a good decision as it turned out as I really failed to enjoy the match. A shame, given recent Australia vs South Africa encounters have been excellent (in fact all of the matches in South Africa last year were fantastic). Be really interesting to see how a slightly weakened AB side fare next weekend against a South African outfit that are looking less likely to retain their WC title after each performance.

One thing getting carved up by the Aussie backline; they are awesome but when their forwards smash you and pummel you in the scrum, then you really have got problems. So many passengers.

Captain is apparently missing this weekend’s game, so that will considerably strengthen the Boks but what to do about the likes of Dinosaur and Banana? Frans Steyn is out injured as well. Was really looking forward to seeing him play on the weekend but aside from the silly facial hair and scrum cap, he looked poorly conditioned for a full-back, which isn’t a surprise as apparently he plays centre in France. Needs to lose at least 5-10kg; he was slower than all the Aussie forwards.

 

[ripper868]

Must say the Wallabies v Italy was probably the most boring/worst game of Rugby I've ever seen (well the first half anyway, didn't bother with the second). All hail Quade Cooper, butchering tries and throwing hospital passes since 2006.

AWTA, i dont think much of cooper at 12, come to think of it, i don't think much of cooper, but Deans sees something in the kid so that's enough for me. I only caught the last 20 minutes (got home from hospital - See made/ruined for details) which going from your post was a good thing.

Looking forward to the french, seems they've sent a decent squad out this year, considering they usually send out the U20 team on this tour.

Fair to say I've changed my tone a little bit. Since 2009.

 

[Somerset]

One thing getting carved up by the Aussie backline; they are awesome but when their forwards smash you and pummel you in the scrum, then you really have got problems. So many passengers.

Captain is apparently missing this weekend’s game, so that will considerably strengthen the Boks but what to do about the likes of Dinosaur and Banana? Frans Steyn is out injured as well. Was really looking forward to seeing him play on the weekend but aside from the silly facial hair and scrum cap, he looked poorly conditioned for a full-back, which isn’t a surprise as apparently he plays centre in France. Needs to lose at least 5-10kg; he was slower than all the Aussie forwards.

Smit's absence will definitely make SA a stronger opponent - Bismark du Plessis rates, IMO, as one of the best hookers in world rugby right now and should be starting every match. I think its quite clear that the criticism towards Smit as a prop is also justified with the appalling Springbok scrum for the final 20 minutes on the weekend. Surprised Steenkamp also seemed to struggle as I'd rated him a good scrummager.

 

[James]

Well done South Africa, but boy did that game show that if we lose one of Carter or McCaw we really are completely stuffed.

Slade was absolute rubbish, don't think he did a single thing right all night and hope he doesn't make it anywhere near the 30 man squad. Messam, Whitelock and especially Thomson were also very poor.

A plus point was our back three looked dangerous all night but didn't convert any chances however.

One very worried All Blacks fan here.

 

[Somerset]

Be really interesting to see how a slightly weakened AB side fare next weekend against a South African outfit that are looking less likely to retain their WC title after each performance.

Typical of my predictions that after saying something like that, SA turn it around and beat NZ the following week. Impressive scrambling defensive effort from the Boks; after the first 10 minutes I was expected the ABs to convert their breaks but it never really eventuated. Ill discipline didn't exact help our chances either when you've got Morne Steyn in top kicking form. Either way, could've been a lot different had Cowan's try been awarded, which given the ruling around the TMO was a joke. The comment from the TMO of "the grounding of the ball is fine....do you want to know what happened in the build up? The pass was forward!" goes completely against what the TMO is actually permitted to call on. I realise theres an argument that the right call was actually made - but it causes all sorts of consistency issues in reviewing acts of play pre-scoring of tries.

 

[Somerset]

Well done South Africa, but boy did that game show that if we lose one of Carter or McCaw we really are completely stuffed.

Slade was absolute rubbish, don't think he did a single thing right all night and hope he doesn't make it anywhere near the 30 man squad. Messam, Whitelock and especially Thomson were also very poor.

A plus point was our back three looked dangerous all night but didn't convert any chances however.

One very worried All Blacks fan here.

I wouldn't be worried, and in fact was very pleased to see Dagg, Toeava and Kahui in particular return to top level rugby and have a huge impact. Remember that a number of first-choice players weren't part of the touring squad, including the two biggest names in McCaw and Carter. I really think we missed Owen Franks and Brad Thorn too, with the tight forwards missing their physical presence. I thought Slade was ok although his error rate was a little high for a test match - this was only his second start in an AB jersey though so we can't really expect him to exhibit a Carter-like performance. Agreed regarding Messam, who I can't see making the WC squad. Whitelock had one of his weaker performances. Thomson caught my eye and I thought he played well, although his style doesn't fit the typical NZ openside flanker role.

 

[Hurricane]

I admire both of you for getting up in the middle of the night.

I watched the second half on replay just now. Toeava was weak under the high ball and hopefully won't make the 30 man squad. Jimmy Cowan is incredible. Ellis is mediocre. Slade wasted possession on two plays in the 2nd half that caught my eye. One forward pass and then an aimless chip kick that was effectively a turn over. Gear looked good under the high ball and I know he has been practising it after he was dropped at one point.

Glad we lost - best thing that could have happened to us.

There were two scrums in a row in the 2nd half where Adam Thomson did something funky with the ball at his feet and we ended up losing it. Not sure why the number 7 would ever end up with the ball - something wasn't right.

 

[Smudge]

Slade was absolute rubbish, don't think he did a single thing right all night and hope he doesn't make it anywhere near the 30 man squad.

Well done on providing an alternative for 10. Kneejerk much?

 

[Hurricane]

. Either way, could've been a lot different had Cowan's try been awarded, which given the ruling around the TMO was a joke. The comment from the TMO of "the grounding of the ball is fine....do you want to know what happened in the build up? The pass was forward!" goes completely against what the TMO is actually permitted to call on. I realise theres an argument that the right call was actually made - but it causes all sorts of consistency issues in reviewing acts of play pre-scoring of tries.

He said "do you want to know what happened before the try line? and then he paused and waited for the ref to answer - and then he preceeded to tell him after the ref said yes. So both the TMO and the ref are guilty. But honestly Somers did you want us to be awarded that try - hand on heart time.

 

[James]

I wouldn't be worried, and in fact was very pleased to see Dagg, Toeava and Kahui in particular return to top level rugby and have a huge impact. Remember that a number of first-choice players weren't part of the touring squad, including the two biggest names in McCaw and Carter. I really think we missed Owen Franks and Brad Thorn too, with the tight forwards missing their physical presence. I thought Slade was ok although his error rate was a little high for a test match - this was only his second start in an AB jersey though so we can't really expect him to exhibit a Carter-like performance. Agreed regarding Messam, who I can't see making the WC squad. Whitelock had one of his weaker performances. Thomson caught my eye and I thought he played well, although his style doesn't fit the typical NZ openside flanker role.

Agree with you, the South Africans out muscled us around the field all night in the contact areas. It does show perfectly how the Northern Hemisphere teams and SA are going to play against us in the World Cup and hopefully we'll learn a lot from this match.

Well done on providing an alternative for 10. Kneejerk much?

We have to go Weepu as our back-up first-five IMO although I believe he's still our best half-back. At least he'll be able to kick the goals and has the experience. Slade looked scared and completely shell-shocked and I would hope he doesn't make it anywhere near the team at least for another year or two because he clearly isn't up to the challenge.

 

[Somerset]

He said "do you want to know what happened before the try line? and then he paused and waited for the ref to answer - and then he preceeded to tell him after the ref said yes. So both the TMO and the ref are guilty. But honestly Somers did you want us to be awarded that try - hand on heart time.

Oh I fully admit that the pass was forward, theres no doubt about that. But if the TMO is making calls on forward passes 2 metres out from the line, where does it end? The final pass before a try? At the ruck before it was scored? At the point in which the ball was last turned over? The rules are that hes not allowed to call on any of those points - only the act of scoring a try; passing the ball to a player to score doesn't fit that definition.

I also think both the TMO and referee are to blame, but the TMO really shouldn't have asked the question to the referee and given him the additional information. Otherwise Joubert should've asked the TMO if Read had knocked the ball on against Australia two weeks ago; or perhaps Barnes should've gone to the TMO to catch the Michalak pass against the ABs in 2007...but those are ridiculous examples and of course the TMO shouldn't rule on those, just as he shouldn't have this morning.

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I'm not suggesting the TMO made the decision in favour of South Africa because he was South African - in fact I'm sure its the same TMO who awarded a favourable try to McCaw in that dramatic test which New Zealand snatched in South Africa last year - but I am saying it was a poor mistake irrespective of his knowledge that there was a forward pass.

 

[Somerset]

I admire both of you for getting up in the middle of the night.

I watched the second half on replay just now. Toeava was weak under the high ball and hopefully won't make the 30 man squad. Jimmy Cowan is incredible. Ellis is mediocre. Slade wasted possession on two plays in the 2nd half that caught my eye. One forward pass and then an aimless chip kick that was effectively a turn over. Gear looked good under the high ball and I know he has been practising it after he was dropped at one point.

Glad we lost - best thing that could have happened to us.

There were two scrums in a row in the 2nd half where Adam Thomson did something funky with the ball at his feet and we ended up losing it. Not sure why the number 7 would ever end up with the ball - something wasn't right.

I imagine James would've stayed up since the match was only at 1am in his part of the world.

I actually thought Toeava did really well, including under the high ball. Made some impressive bursts on attack in both halves, and I'd be surprised if he doesn't make the WC squad. I fear that Cory Jane will be the one to miss out; with Dagg back as the second fullback, and with Gear, Sivivatu and Toeava likely to be included on the wing, I don't see a spot for him. If the decision was up to me though, I'd have him in the squad over Gear - even though he too played well, particularly in fielding the high kicks this morning. As for Thomson, as I mentioned in an early post he was prominent but outplayed as the openside flanker by Brussouw who played brilliantly - even though I feel he made a few turnovers under the old laws by not releasing the tackled player first.

 

[Somerset]

Agree with you, the South Africans out muscled us around the field all night in the contact areas. It does show perfectly how the Northern Hemisphere teams and SA are going to play against us in the World Cup and hopefully we'll learn a lot from this match.

We have to go Weepu as our back-up first-five IMO although I believe he's still our best half-back. At least he'll be able to kick the goals and has the experience. Slade looked scared and completely shell-shocked and I would hope he doesn't make it anywhere near the team at least for another year or two because he clearly isn't up to the challenge.

Thats why I felt the absense of Owen Franks and Thorn, who both have such a physical style of play, was so notable. We're bound to encounter at least a few sides who adopt a similar style of physicality in the WC (likely SA in the semi-final) so we'll need a better strategy to overcome that with the full strenght XV.

Again I think thats a little harsh on Slade, who I didn't think was poor by any means. As for scared, I imagine he took the ball to the line three times as much as Morne Steyn, so I think inexperienced is a better description. I'd have no issue including Weepu as the back-up flyhalf but if we're to do that, do we also include Ellis, or two outside backs, or another forward on the bench? With Houggard, South Africa can afford to play five forwards, since he can cover halfback and as a utility in the backline.

 

[Hurricane]

I think wings will lose you more games than they win you - so for that reason I would go for security under the high ball before attacking prowess. Which means Jane and Gear on the wings.

And you don't give up too much attacking skill either.

Toeava dropped at least one kick in the 2nd stanza - and didn't see him in the 1st.

 

[Hurricane]

Also I have memories of Toeava having hands of clay in the centres. So I don't trust him. That said as someone else posted here - he is a Henry favourite and is likely to get picked because of that alone.

 

[Quaggas]

Pah, a Henry ploy from the White/Jones playbook.

Warms the ****les of my heart, nonetheless.