**Official** Pakistan v New Zealand in the UAE 2014

[wellAlbidarned]

The problem with Sodhi is that his action mechanics aren't nearly as good as Warne's (in fact they're ****ing terrible) were which serverely limits his potential ceiling.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Guys the mods have already told us what the deal is...lets be mature and leave it at that.

Anyway guys whats Hesson had to say about the defeat? has he hinted at any changes?

As for Warne Heath he failed badly in the first ten tests from what i recall (i already compared his stats to Narine's a while back) but as you say overnight the guy just turned into a monster after that...and of course a certain team in maroon helped him get started .

 

[hendrix]

Blocky: Please look at Sodhi's pitch map from the first innings. He bowled with exceptional control that id never seen before from him. It should be available on cricinfo.

 

[CM Punk]

Ish didn't bowl as many short balls as I thought he would.

Definitely a marked improvement, he was just unfortunate to run into a team in red hot form.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

The problem with Sodhi is that his action mechanics aren't nearly as good as Warne's (in fact they're ****ing terrible) were which serverely limits his potential ceiling.

Indeed, but I don't think anyone expects the next Warne. As I asked, would we be happy with the next Danish Kaneria? Is that a realistic ceiling for Sodhi?

 

[Blocky]

What were Shane Warne's stats after a similar number of first class matches as Sodhi? His first couple of seasons in Australia were poor and Australia is a much more leg spin friendly country for an aspiring bowler.

Now, I'm not saying Sodhi is going to be anywhere near as good as Warne - and I suspect Warne's first 20 first class matches were still better than Sodhi's. However, my point is this - Warne improved rapidly from a 30-40 average Sheffield Shield bowler to a player who averaged 25 in Tests and one of the greatest bowlers of all time. If Sodhi improved to a comparative extent, would we be happy with a leg spinner averaging ~35 in Test cricket (which would be about Danish Kaneria standard) (261 wickets at 35). I suspect that's what NZC are hoping for with Sodhi.

Warne had four things that Sodhi doesn't have.

A: Massive rip on the ball.
B: Three variations that he could bowl reasonably accurately.
C: A couple of seasons in the academy and a few performances underneath him before being selected.
D: A performance of note at test level within his first six tests and first year of test cricket.

Even Warne's "terrible debut year in 1992" where India took him apart, he averaged less in test cricket than Sodhi averages in domestic first class cricket.

So comparing Sodhi to Warne really comes down to "Sodhi bowls leg spin, so does Warne" = it's like comparing Richard De Groen to Shane Bond, only De Groen actually performed decently for his domestic side.

 

[hendrix]

Indeed, but I don't think anyone expects the next Warne. As I asked, would we be happy with the next Danish Kaneria? Is that a realistic ceiling for Sodhi?

absolutely I'd be happy with that.

A relatively high average coupled to a good strike rate would be nice.

 

[Blocky]

Indeed, but I don't think anyone expects the next Warne. As I asked, would we be happy with the next Danish Kaneria? Is that a realistic ceiling for Sodhi?

Kaneria also had an average under 30 in first class cricket before being selected in tests.

There is some sad reason that the selectors continue to back Sodhi, so it means we're going to see him play 25-30 tests and probably never make an impact for NZ. I'd rather see those 30 tests given to someone like Brooke Walker or Todd Astle who at least manage an average in the thirties in domestic cricket. Look at how terribly we've played Yasir Shah to realise that domestically, we have no clue how to play spinners so one even half good will take hatfuls of wickets.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Warne had four things that Sodhi doesn't have.

A: Massive rip on the ball.
B: Three variations that he could bowl reasonably accurately.
C: A couple of seasons in the academy and a few performances underneath him before being selected.
D: A performance of note at test level within his first six tests and first year of test cricket.

Even Warne's "terrible debut year in 1992" where India took him apart, he averaged less in test cricket than Sodhi averages in domestic first class cricket.

So comparing Sodhi to Warne really comes down to "Sodhi bowls leg spin, so does Warne" = it's like comparing Richard De Groen to Shane Bond, only De Groen actually performed decently for his domestic side.

As I said, I wasn't actively comparing Sodhi with Warne, more highlighting the fact that leg spinners tend to require more time to learn consistency than orthodox spinners. Sodhi's selection has to be on potential and NZC must be taking the gamble that he will improve more by playing international cricket than he will playing in the Plunket Shield. In fact, Sodhi probably needs to be playing domestic cricket in England or Australia moreso than playing first class in New Zealand if he seriously wants to improve.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Kaneria also had an average under 30 in first class cricket before being selected in tests.

Indeed. But different country, different conditions and different depth.

Mushtaq Ahmed, Abdul Qadir and Danish Kaneria all averaged ~25 in first class cricket in Pakistan but between 32 and 35 in Test matches.

 

[Blocky]

Base level argument: If Sodhi had ANY potential at all, don't you think we'd see him bring his average down into the low thirties at domestic level considering the opposition he's playing against..

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Base level argument: If Sodhi had ANY potential at all, don't you think we'd see him bring his average down into the low thirties at domestic level considering the opposition he's playing against..

No - because at the moment he's not playing enough First Class cricket and the way that NZC have set up the domestic calendar is far from ideal. That's why I think a spell on the county circuit would prove whether he had potential. He needs to be bowling long spells week in, week out. Not bowling sporadically when Sky have decided that there's a space in the calendar for a first class romp.

 

[Blocky]

As I said, I wasn't actively comparing Sodhi with Warne, more highlighting the fact that leg spinners tend to require more time to learn consistency than orthodox spinners. Sodhi's selection has to be on potential and NZC must be taking the gamble that he will improve more by playing international cricket than he will playing in the Plunket Shield. In fact, Sodhi probably needs to be playing domestic cricket in England or Australia moreso than playing first class in New Zealand if he seriously wants to improve.

Warne was what, 23 on debut? Within a year he was dominating at test level and had already shown promise at first class level. The idea that "Sodhi won't neccessarily improve if he plays in NZ" doesn't ring true, because we've seen spinners come to NZ and rip us apart too. We're just in the same rut that we were in even with Vettori where we feel compelled to have a spin bowler in the side even if that spin bowler isn't good enough and it's the wrong trap to be in.

HeathDavisSpeed - yes, invariably in first class your figures will be better than they'll become in test cricket unless you're either a late bloomer or a freak. The problem is that Sodhi even after 30 first class matches has not got his average away from 50 per wicket and yet we're persisting with him at the highest level possible.... at the moment he's going for over fifty per wicket in test cricket and could quite possibly end this series going for 60+

How many more chances do we give him? You all seem to be of the mind that you play him until his potential shows up.... yet, I'm of the mind that if he's any bloody good, his potential will show up at domestic cricket first and as of yet, it hasn't.

 

[Blocky]

No - because at the moment he's not playing enough First Class cricket and the way that NZC have set up the domestic calendar is far from ideal. That's why I think a spell on the county circuit would prove whether he had potential. He needs to be bowling long spells week in, week out. Not bowling sporadically when Sky have decided that there's a space in the calendar for a first class romp.

I'd say 21 matches of first class cricket is enough to assess a player.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I think with spinners some selectors take risks because it is hoped that the more they play the more they'll develop. In essence Sodhi couldn't have a better platform to learn in..but him playing tests doesn't mean he'll suddenly turn into a monster in a year or two..he still has to have the TALENT to come through...Ish can look to the likes of Swann to see what hard work and perseverance can achieve..but the difference is Swanny was a monster domestically so at least showed his capabilities at a decent level..for Ish to progress he first needs to seperate himself from his peers at domestic level imo.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Why was Vettori picked initially anyway? Am I wrong or didn't he play next to no first-class matches?

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah he had 2 FC games. If memory serves, one of them had been against England as a part of a warmup match, and he went pretty well, so the selectors were like "Well, given that our next best option is Dipak Patel, why the hell not?"

 

[CharlesLara]

Warne was what, 23 on debut? Within a year he was dominating at test level and had already shown promise at first class level. The idea that "Sodhi won't neccessarily improve if he plays in NZ" doesn't ring true, because we've seen spinners come to NZ and rip us apart too. We're just in the same rut that we were in even with Vettori where we feel compelled to have a spin bowler in the side even if that spin bowler isn't good enough and it's the wrong trap to be in.

HeathDavisSpeed - yes, invariably in first class your figures will be better than they'll become in test cricket unless you're either a late bloomer or a freak. The problem is that Sodhi even after 30 first class matches has not got his average away from 50 per wicket and yet we're persisting with him at the highest level possible.... at the moment he's going for over fifty per wicket in test cricket and could quite possibly end this series going for 60+

How many more chances do we give him? You all seem to be of the mind that you play him until his potential shows up.... yet, I'm of the mind that if he's any bloody good, his potential will show up at domestic cricket first and as of yet, it hasn't.

Being a leggie in Australia is completely different to NZ. The history,tradition, culture, resources and most importantly, the captaincy in Australia towards leg spin is second to none in world cricket.

 

[Blocky]

Why was Vettori picked initially anyway? Am I wrong or didn't he play next to no first-class matches?

Because he bowled his ass off against England in a tour match and had shown highly promising signs through age group cricket, he also started his first few seasons with a pretty decent rate of return in terms of wickets and he ALWAYS had razor accuracy and control.

Being a leggie in Australia is completely different to NZ. The history,tradition, culture, resources and most importantly, the captaincy in Australia towards leg spin is second to none in world cricket.

I don't disagree with you, so why then are we picking a leggie from NZ and expecting to see results from them if we don't have the resources, captaincy and culture to make them work for us...? Especially when that leggie isn't showing us anything to suggest he has what it takes to play at this grade.

 

[Blocky]

Blocky: Please look at Sodhi's pitch map from the first innings. He bowled with exceptional control that id never seen before from him. It should be available on cricinfo.

Hendrix - you'll have seen me state that it was his best bowling performance in an NZ Shirt...

But in conditions that suit him, he took wickets at 72 per wicket, did not look threatening for any real stints or time and most of the wickets happened out of the blue, rather than feeling like something was building. He also still had a tendency to throw a crap ball in every over. He went at 4 an over in the first innings and 5 an over in the second innings, the fact that we're saying "He bowled with exceptional control and it was his best performance in an NZ shirt" and the results are what they are should really give you reason to be kicking up the same fuss I kick up about him being in the side.