*Official* Pak In NZ Thread

[anzac]

Well I can't share your angst at Cairns' selection, a fit Cairns has always been a certainty for any NZ team. If Fleming is fit and they leave out Jones and Wiseman (which is likely) they will have the team that I picked

I am however disappointed that Jones was preferred ahead of McIntosh, and Wiseman's selection is a bit ridiculous really.

As for Marshall, nope, I can't agree with your rationale at all, he's done less to deserve selection than Lou Vincent had so odds are he'll be as crap if not crapper.

TH we are going to have to agree to disagree on these ones.......

Any player selected should be 100% fit, especially if they are classified as an 'allrounder'. Furthermore they should have some current form, if not be amongst THE form players of the moment - Cairns has no current form with bat or ball to justify his selection ahead of other 'allrounders', let alone specialist batsmen or bowlers. IMO his selection is based up reputation which is 2-3 seasons past it's use by date. He has not played Test cricket for some time due to injury, and has had 1 decent ODI innings since the VB series in Australia, which was the last itme he had any success with the ball! :!(

So far as Marshall goes forget about his domestic form as he was selected for the ODIs in Pakistan and IMO he appears to be a big time player - his domestic form is indifferent but he is able to step up a level for internationals or the big occaision (joint player of the match with James in last years Shield Final v Auckalnd).

He has current international form v Pakistan including a ton & 2 50s in 5 innings, batted thru the innings twice, at a series average & run rate of 80 - and you don't want to select him? In comparison neither Jones or McIntosh (whom I want to see given an opportunity) have any international credibility between them. :P

So far as the Vincent arguement goes Marshall had been selected previously rightly or wrongly, but more importantly he has not failed at international level in either form of the game, despite basically a 3 year break & 2 different types of game.

When he has been given the same number of opportunities at international level as Sinclair, let alone Vincent, and his record is worse than theirs, then you can come back and say I told you so.

 

[anzac]

In NZ Pak is going to get hammered!! Face it, Pak has a lowsy batting line up and in NZ condition they would struggle to even reach 100 in one innings (irrespective of the fact that Bond willplay or not).

When batsmen of the class of Tendulkar/Dravid and Laxman weren't able to perform well on NZ pitches, then how the hell can we expect Pakistani batters to play decent cricket.


Atmost Inzi might get some runs!

Nope - wrong, & why??????........


Pakistan's batting lineup may not be as good as Australia, India or possibly RSA or even SRL, but it is still good on paper, and stronger than NZ's - as was India's last year;

The pitches are unlikely to be as bad 2 seasons in a row - no nullifying of the Pakistani batting ;

Even if they are the Pakistani seam attack is better suited to exploit this even more so than the NZ seam attack. India's seam attack last year was crap & did not have the ability to exploit the pitches.

 

[anzac]

Assuming Pakistanis getting pasted in NZ and India comming out stronger at the end of Australian series, the upcomming Indo-Pak series would become very interesting.This is what Akram said recently, Aussie series is only going to make Indian team stronger.If Indian batsmen can take Ausie bowlers with ease, then facing Pakistani bowlers would be like a piece of cake.:saint:

So far the Indian batsmen have done well, now they have to learn to do it as a Team.

I'd hardly call facing Ahktar & Sami a piece of cake at the best of times........

 

[Tim]

the squad was not going to change much from the team that went to India really....If they had lost 2-0 in India then some players might have got the boot, but as it stands it was 0-0 & most of the players put in some solid performances.

I don't really think Bracewell wanted to go too far outside the square just yet...maybe we'll see some major changes when NZ tour England mid-way through next year..I reckon McIntosh, Marshall & maybe Jesse Ryder will feature in that touring squad.

There's just not enough time in this test series to pick new players or drop players..I think though that some players could be playing for spots in the South African series...mainly Cairns, Vincent, Oram & Butler.

 

[Tim]

Well McIntosh has a big chance now to impress against Pakistan.
He's 13* after hitting 3 consecutive boundries off Sami.
Vincent is already out for 5, so there will be some serious competition between those 2 at the moment.

 

[anzac]

good to see Walker get amongst the wickets again - I'd love to see NZ make a concentrated effort to develop more wrist spin rather than the natural tendancy for finger spin............

 

[anzac]

the squad was not going to change much from the team that went to India really....If they had lost 2-0 in India then some players might have got the boot, but as it stands it was 0-0 & most of the players put in some solid performances.

I don't really think Bracewell wanted to go too far outside the square just yet...maybe we'll see some major changes when NZ tour England mid-way through next year..I reckon McIntosh, Marshall & maybe Jesse Ryder will feature in that touring squad.

There's just not enough time in this test series to pick new players or drop players..I think though that some players could be playing for spots in the South African series...mainly Cairns, Vincent, Oram & Butler.

Oh I wasn't expecting many changes - nor was I calling for any - just that the injuries have presented some opportunities that I felt could have been taken advantage of.......

I know Jones has been the batting cover on the last 2 tours, but now I feel there is at least 1 if not 2 more options in Marshall & McIntosh.

Vincent's form was not that bad and his domestic form has been as good as any, same with Oram & Butler.

While I find Wiseman's selection a bit hard to fathom, it is the selection of Cairns & his current 'form' that riles me, as I feel it is not in keeping with Bracewell's comments about players being capable of doing their job / roles. Further to this Cairns was not in the Test squad to India & is effectively in the team as replacement for Astle, who was one of the form batsmen of that series.

This means we are going from 6 specialist batsmen down to 5 with one unknown quantity. As you pointed out in a 2 Test series it is unlikely that anyone will be replaced for the 2nd Test unless thru injury.

He has probably had more chances given with no form than anyone else in the squad. At least Vincent gets it together on occaision, and even Macca was allowed to stand down / left out of the SRL tour to work on his form. Sinclair has been dropped and is unable to get back in favour on the same kind of form!

They must think he walks on water or he is untouchable, because for the last 2 seasons he has rarely threatened & even more seldomly delivered. I could tolerate it if his domestic form was solid, but no!!! His bark is definately worse than his bite and I think it is embarrasing to see a great player struggle so badly! It's almost like the punch drunk ex champ trying to get back in the ring for one more crack at the title........

:!(

 

[Salamuddin]

India's pace attack may not be great but on those pitches last year, NZ's batsmen didn't exactly cover themselves with glory against India's "crap" attack as you so eloquently put it.

And let's face it, barring Bond, the rest of NZ's seam attack still have to prove they can take wickets on a consistent basis outside New Zealand.

Tiffey averages something like 45 outside NZ doesn't he ?

 

[Salamuddin]

sorry --- I'll try again, Darryl Tuffey

 

[Tim]

that is correct, although he's only played 9 tests overseas so far in his career.

 

[Tim]

Good match in progress between Auckland & Pakistan.
Disappointing to see McIntosh only get 32, but Rob Nicol is currently 56* with six 4's & three 6's to his name.

 

[Tim]

damn, just as I said that Nicol was out for 56...oh well a decent score from him.

 

[THE MINGSTER]

So, Anzac you would rather have Marshall (who has not shown an ability to bat for a long period of time) over Chris Cairns (4 Test centuries) in terms of batting?

Good squad from Bracewell. Jones is a solid option at the top for us if Fleming is injured. McIntosh should have another first-class season with a view to the England tour.

Wiseman was there as a second spinning option. No problems with that as he is a healthy addition to the squad. Always gives you another option.

Nicol was out for 60 Tim mate. Good innings.

 

[Tim]

Jones was always going to be picked ahead of McIntosh even though McIntosh has got a better average.

Jones has been taken to Sri Lanka & India and has yet to play a test so in fairness he should still be picked ahead of McIntosh.

 

[THE MINGSTER]

Did you go to the Tour match Tim?

 

[Tim]

Nah i've got Summer School at Uni this week so I can't get there..I wanted to go yesterday but I was out on a boat all day.
Bit frustrating because its free entry.

i don't think Auckland are playing at my home ground Colin Maiden Park either this season so I might try and get out to Eden Park sometime in the next couple of months to see Auckland play.

 

[THE MINGSTER]

Yeah. The atmosphere was tremendous the other day.

 

[anzac]

India's pace attack may not be great but on those pitches last year, NZ's batsmen didn't exactly cover themselves with glory against India's "crap" attack as you so eloquently put it.

And let's face it, barring Bond, the rest of NZ's seam attack still have to prove they can take wickets on a consistent basis outside New Zealand.

Tiffey averages something like 45 outside NZ doesn't he ?

crap as in didn't take full advantage of the conditions ie not having the skills or experience to do so - something the Pakistani quicks will not lack for

the rest of your post supports my comments as to why Pakistan should not get slaughtered in NZ......

 

[anzac]

sorry --- I'll try again, Darryl Tuffey

 

[anzac]

So, Anzac you would rather have Marshall (who has not shown an ability to bat for a long period of time) over Chris Cairns (4 Test centuries) in terms of batting?

Good squad from Bracewell. Jones is a solid option at the top for us if Fleming is injured. McIntosh should have another first-class season with a view to the England tour.

Wiseman was there as a second spinning option. No problems with that as he is a healthy addition to the squad. Always gives you another option.

Nicol was out for 60 Tim mate. Good innings.

on current form yes, particularly when you are replacing a form batsman from the last Test series!!!!!!

Cairns has no form with bat or ball and has not had for some time IMO, let alone produced consistant results. Against this Pakistani attack Marshall batted thru the ODI innings for 2 NOs from No4 - so he has spent more time at the crease than Cairns, including Cairns' appearances for Canterbury v Wellington (in each innings he did not make / face double figures, while in his 2nd innings bowling he took 1 for 55 off 8!!!!).

In his only Test appearance to date Marshall finished 40no because he ran out of partners. IMO it would appear that he is able to raise his game several levels for the international stage - if this is so & he remains consistant at it then who cares what his domestic form is like?????

I am a big big fan of Cairns and rate him as one of the top allrounders in the current game when he is in form. But I can not justify / agree with his selection in this instance. I hope like hell for him as much as for NZ that he has a blinder, as I see Bracewell has confirmed that he will bat at 6 and be the 4th seamer ahead of Styris!

True Jones is solid & consistancy would dictate that he continue as batting cover in the squad. However as I said b4 I think his style of play as a defensive opener limits his usability to cover anything but the opening position - if Macca was injured I'd hardly think Jones could fulfill the same role, which lead to my opinion that they would need to force Vincent down the order under those sort of circumstances, which would further undermine his confidence in retaining his spot in the squad.

McIntosh has just turned 24 yrs old & is the same age or older than when several current test players made their debuts (Vincent, Fleming, Macca, Cairns, Oram, Vettori, Tuffey, Butler), let alone the ODI side which is even more of a cauldron & less forgiving. He has been the dominant batsman on the domestic calendar with a good average and conversion rate. Apart from the sporadic 'A' team appearances I can not think of any more he needs to prove to gain selection. Furthermore he is IMO a better player to provide batting cover as he has form batting anywhere in the top 3.

My preference is to strike while the iron is hot, rather than spend too much time waiting to see if they are consistant over the course of several seasons. I think this is why we see so many youngsters debuting from the subcontinent, as they seem to prefer to find their true colours at the highest level when they are in form and have confidence. However I am not advocating he immediately plays in the starting lineup, just that he has done enough to deserve inclusion in the squad at least.

I've also read that Wiseman was included because spinners have been wicket takers in the Hamilton strip so far this season. Well fair enough then, esp after his 5 for in 1st innings of the Wellington / Canterbury drawn game.

I'd still prefer to have seen a different type of option such as swing or left arm seam, as IMO seam is NZ's bowling 'strength' rather than spin - but that's my preference. EG Franklin took 5 wickets in the same match, and his previous Tests were in the last home series v Pakistan & has 7 wickets at an average of 21. Wilson has 2x5 wicket bags in 2 matches, which is as good as any bowler did all last season. I just think that there are other options available other than the tried & true all the time.