*Official* Pak In NZ Thread

[anzac]

Chris Cairns is bowling absolute rubbish...and add to the fact that he's been hopeless with the bat.

We can't keep picking Oram & Cairns..it has to be one or the other & clearly at the moment Oram is the better of the two.

Hell I've been saying that for ages......IMO the selectors have basically ****ed 8 ODIs down the drain and have still not come up with anything that appears to be a definative solution to their problems.....

they uncovered a middle order batsman in Marshall but are now trying to slot him into Astle's vacant position at No3 - he may eventaully succeed but not if he is constantly being exposed within the first 10 overs!!!!!

:!(

 

[anzac]

I don't think NZ will make many changes...I think Martin Crowe made the point about Chris Harris. If he doesn't get recalled then that shows that the selectors are no longer considering him as an option for ODI cricket.

the squad for Jade Stadium has been announced with Adams released from the 13 & no additional player brought in - so Harris misses out & I guess this means the end of his ODI career.........

this 12 has only been selected for the 3rd ODI so I guess several players will be told that this is make or break for them for this series...

IMO this will include not only Cumming, but also Cairns & even McMillan.....

 

[anzac]

I feel sorry for Cumming though, he's had all his success for Otago as an opener in 4 day cricket & little at OD level..so really he got thrown in at the deep end & the chances of him playing test cricket, perhaps where he would best be suited are very slim.

agreed.....I blame the selectors for not properly addressing the various issues sooner.....

however even tho' his style may be better suited to the longer game he has failed to show any ability to stick around & provide protection for the middle order - I could handle him scoring slowly if he was able to provide a platform - as an opener in the longer game he should be able to do this in the ODI as the pitches do not have as much early sting as what he would face in the longer game....

 

[anzac]

An interesting comment made by the commentators today regarding these drop in pitches - one that I have been concerned about & agree with their observations........

if I understand the history correctly ODI pitches were originally used pitches supposedly at late Day 2 or Day 3 type Test pitches.....there were problems with inconsistencies and we regularly ended up with substandard Day 4 / 5 type pitches that kept low or were inconsistant with bounce - resulting in poor low scoring matches that were not good for the ODI format in so much that the bowlers dominated the batsmen too often....this lead to the development of these drop in pitches which were supposed to give a better / more consistant batting surface....

we now have a different problem being that these pitches are generally not played on b4 the ODI & as a result there is no 'history' to indicate how the pitch is going to play...

as an example the pre match talk today was of the likelyhood of the pitch being quick - as it turns out this was not only incorrect, but yet again we saw a variance in 'life' in the pitch for the first 20 or so overs of the match........

once more we have a situation where the winning of the toss usually leads to the 'safe' decision to bowl first so as to avoid any early 'life' and have the best batting conditions to chase on after the pitch has been 'played in'....

IMO these 'drop in' pitches need to have some sort of 'play' on them b4 a match to ensure they are not only bedded in, but also to give some indication as to how the pitch will play.....

I admit to having no idea as to what type of pitches were used in the TVS Cup or wether they had been 'played in' or not, or if it was just the playing time & atmospheric conditions that gave the pitches so much variation & life.....

 

[Kent]

Why worry about Cumming being exposed if his reactions just aren't up to it? Once again he was dismissed by being late on a shot, wasn't he?

The main thing that I don't think domestic cricket results are telling us is who actually likes the ball coming on. I think Marshall is one, and probably finds our pitches and bowlers a bit like Sampras found playing tennis on clay. Granted, his record should still be better. Cumming, on the other hand, looks like a batsman who needs all the time he can get.

 

[anzac]

I thought Butler bowled better than his figures indicated today & was without some luck.......he troubled the batsmen in his first spell, but the damage was already done by the time he came back for his later spells - not enough runs to play with......I'm still not too sure about opening with him regarding the fielding restrictions & the length he bowls tending to be on the short side - perhaps it may be worth a go to have him come in as 1st change behind Tuffey & Oram who are both generally tight & accurate .....

IMO the Pakistani batsmen started to get on top when Cairns came to the crease & there was no better indication than in the last over he bowled.......NZ can not afford to keep carrying Cairns as a frontline bowler - means the selectors are having to 2nd guess how he will bowl & make selections accordingly - even Macca got a bowl today

Both Styris & Vettori seemed to be trying almost too hard to make something 'happen' & seemed to feel the pressure as the 'last' bowling options after Cairns' failure..........

 

[anzac]

Why worry about Cumming being exposed if his reactions just aren't up to it? Once again he was dismissed by being late on a shot, wasn't he?

The main thing that I don't think domestic cricket results are telling us is who actually likes the ball coming on. I think Marshall is one, and probably finds our pitches and bowlers a bit like Sampras found playing tennis on clay. Granted, his record should still be better. Cumming, on the other hand, looks like a batsman who needs all the time he can get.

agreed.......as I said earlier in the thread we may have some batsmen who would have better / more consistant records if our pitches had more consistant pace & bounce, & therefore have more selection options - this was the call from Fleming & Co that lead to the NZCC trying to address the issue to allow batsmen to play their shots....

it will also aid the bowlers & hopefully develop some more quicks, and also the requirements for them the be able to 'swing' the ball etc.....

it could be an interesting excercise to look at the current / fringe players to see where they are producing their best results and on what sort of wickets - eg Marshall HAS performed Away from Home in both RSA & Pakistan, but has yet to fire on Home pitches....M Hart took a 5 wicket bag in an ODI v WI Away from Home, Bond & Styris produced their best ODI bowling Away from Home......

 

[Kent]

Can we afford to keep carrying Vettori as a frontline bowler then? What makes Cairns different?

 

[Kent]

Sorry Anzac, I see you've already sort of answered my question (Cairns fails, Vettori bears the brunt, etc.). But couldn't you argue that Vettori's decline into Bradburn-like status is just putting more pressure on supposedly attacking bowlers like Cairns? Vettori is run-a-ball easy at international level these days.

 

[anzac]

even tho' we are probably going to see the same XI at Jade Stadium, I'd be looking at a few changes....

Cumming
McCullum
Fleming
Marshall
Styris
McMillan
Oram
Cairns
Vettori
Tuffey
Butler

McCullum is in good touch at the moment so time to see how he responds opening again.....Fleming drops down to No3 to give some further protection for the middle order - Marshall should benefit from this as would Styris, Oram gets the nod to bat ahead of Cairns so he does not have to try to 'save' the innings along with McCullum.....

I'd also look to open the bowling with Tuffey & Oram & then use Butler as 1st change & after the fielding restrictions are relaxed....

if I was to play Mills then I'd drop Cairns to do so & would open the bowling with him & Tuffey......I'd then use Butler in a strike role with short spells of 4 - 3 - 3 unless he got on a roll & was taking wickets.....

 

[anzac]

Sorry Anzac, I see you've already sort of answered my question (Cairns fails, Vettori bears the brunt, etc.). But couldn't you argue that Vettori's decline into Bradburn-like status is just putting more pressure on supposedly attacking bowlers like Cairns? Vettori is run-a-ball easy at international level these days.

Oh I agree that Vettori's bowling is cause for some concern, but IMO it is not at the stage where Cairns' failure can be attributed to Vettori's lack of penetration etc......

Cairns just hasn't performed with either bat or ball for some time apart from the odd innings with the bat here & there, and there are alternative players for his role......

Vettori on the other hand has performed well without taking wickets, (although not to date in this ODI series, but this is hardly surprising considering he hardly got a run at all last domestic season even in the Test series because of the pitches!!!), and there is a distinct lack of spin options or of genuine 'slow' bowlers in the Astle / Larson variety - & I do not mean they go back to Harris just because he may be the only alternative with any experience......

Bottom line there are too many issues with this team to be resolved at once - try to deal with them without decimating more than half the team at once......in order of priority IMO = opener / top order, bowling at the death, Cairns, McMillan, Vettori, & already we could be looking at 5 player changes, let alone any resulting order changes & we do not have the 'experience' to do this at the same time.......

 

[Dougie Rydal]

I disagree with the comment we have no 'slow' bowler options. I think Matthew Walker could slot nicely into this category. He is also a genuine all rounder who has scored well this season for Wellington in domestic 4 day cricket.

I like to see McCullum move to open replacing Cumming and Walker slotting in at number 8.

My earlier comment regarding Papps opening was perhaps more based on the position - i.e. we need our keeper to open to free up a slot down the order.

I also think Hamish Marshall looked quite composed yesterday and didnlt look out of place, and was hitting the ball quite nicely till he flicked one off his legs straight to square leg.

 

[anzac]

my comment re 'slow' bowler options was based purely from the perspective of experience - eg Vettori, Wiseman & B Walker for spin, with Harris & Astle having dominated the slow - medium seam up / swing bowling........I don't want to see the selectors going back to Harris simply because they feel they have no other 'experienced' options.......

I know M Walker played in 3 matches in the ODI series in Pakistan and he would appear to be the logical alternative.....but I don't know if the selectors will see it that way with Harris playing well in State matches so far.......

I think one of the problems the bowling attack has at the moment is that we have no genuine 'slow' seam up bowler to take the pace off the ball to strangle the batsmen for pace to work with - a la Astle / Larsen or Harris in his better years......I'd be happy to see M Walker get an opportunity in this series......

I doubt that the selectors will drop McCullum for Papps to open while he is one of only about 3 / 4 batsmen in the side regularly contributing with the bat - the others being Fleming, Styris & Oram.......I'm also not sure that the selectors will want to break up the understanding that Oram & McCullum have in the lower order, as they have been batting well together in the ODIs since the TVS Cup......

Despite this I'd still have McCullum opening but with Cumming for this match (rather than drop Cumming out or down the order, as one way we are short in the batting with only Mills as the 12th player, or we are defeating the purpose somewhat by playing Cumming out of position when there are middle order alternatives that could be called up), & Cairns down to No8 - (if he plays which I think he will)......

like you I'd prefer to see someone like M Walker come in at No8, but I guess we'll have to wait for the 4th ODI to see if that happens.....

 

[Tim]

Peter Fulton is now averaging 50 overall so far in his FC career with 3 hundreds & 6 fifties...if he can keep that average up for the rest of the season & also in the NZ 'A' games then surely he's got to go to England.

 

[Tim]

I've been looking at Mathew Sinclair's stats & its unbelievable that he isn't a permanent fixture in the NZ test side at least.

After 89 FC games he averages 46 with 13 centuries & 33 fifties..its so frustrating to see a guy with a record like that sitting on the sidelines.

Even after 20 tests he averages 37 with 3 centuries & 1 fifty, so his conversion rate is good..but also shows lack of consistency considering he's played 20 tests.

NZ Cricket just have to find a way to sort Sinclair out, because then our top order problems in test cricket would be solved.

And he's still only 28 so there is time left for him to discover the key to consistency at test level.

 

[southern man]

For a slow bowler if Nathan McCullum continues to get game time this year for Otago he could push hard, he is a very good spin bowler and a more than handy batsmen ( has two run a ball 50's in the last two games)

 

[Pratters]

When is the next one day match between Pakistan and New Zealand?

 

[Kent]

Stats can be so misleading at times that I'm pretty much going on a 90% visual basis these days.

Sinclair is a prime example, as to compensate for his anchored feet he needs...
1) bowlers maxing out at around 130km/h, and 2) all spinners to be playable off the pitch.

Unfortunately the only environment he can get this consistently is in our State comps. I'm sure we've all at some point wished they could just 'sort him out', but how? What we're talking about is so fundamental and so ingrained, it's like telling Jim Furyk to be more like Tiger Woods.

 

[Kent]

Pratyush - midday tomorrow (NZT).

 

[Pratters]

thanks Kent..