**Official** New Zealand v Australia

[Mister Wright]

Yeah but I reckon a dual between Bond & Lee would be better if you ask me.

But they don't bowl at each other from the ends of the pitch. It isn't a duel at all. You want to win games, so you play your best players, atm Kasprowicz, Gillespie & McGrath all have it going for them, it's time for Lee to sit down and shut up, there were plenty of times he was picked in the team just because of his "pace" rather than performance, he should remember that next time he cries over his breakfast when named 12th man.

 

[Tim]

Haven't you seen matches in the mid 80's when Hadlee would come out & take 5 wickets, then Lillee would come out & try to at least match that.
I reckon it would be a similar situation with Bond & Lee.

But you're right, and i've also said it before that Lee played his way out of the test side 12 months ago..so why should anybody feel sorry for him now that he's having to wait his turn to get back in. All this crap about him being at the lowest point in his career is ridiculous & if I was Kaspo or Gillespie i'd be telling him to bugger off.

 

[Mister Wright]

Haven't you seen matches in the mid 80's when Hadlee would come out & take 5 wickets, then Lillee would come out & try to at least match that.
I reckon it would be a similar situation with Bond & Lee.

Fair enough compairing Bond with Hadlee, however, even that is a bit of a stretch. But, comparing Lee to Lillee, that is a disgrace.

 

[Tim]

Well I was only using Hadlee & Lillee as examples...Bond & Lee may not necessarily take any wickets but no doubt they'd be striving to do better than the other.

 

[Top_Cat]

But you're right, and i've also said it before that Lee played his way out of the test side 12 months ago..so why should anybody feel sorry for him now that he's having to wait his turn to get back in. All this crap about him being at the lowest point in his career is ridiculous & if I was Kaspo or Gillespie i'd be telling him to bugger off.

Particularly considering the injury and bad luck Gillespie has had in his career so far and how badly Kasper has been treated over the years. If I was them, I'd be telling Lee to just take his medicine and accept that sometimes even if you THINK you're good enough, there's someone who's there already doing well.

It just sounds like whining from Lee. It sucks for him but I doubt he'd get much sympathy especially considering he's had his fair share of times where he's been picked in the team ahead of a more deserving candidate just because he's quicker. How many times did he then get pummelled?

 

[mavric41]

Well I was only using Hadlee & Lillee as examples...Bond & Lee may not necessarily take any wickets but no doubt they'd be striving to do better than the other.

Yeah, with no balls, wides, bouncers and head high full tosses.

 

[mavric41]

Particularly considering the injury and bad luck Gillespie has had in his career so far and how badly Kasper has been treated over the years. If I was them, I'd be telling Lee to just take his medicine and accept that sometimes even if you THINK you're good enough, there's someone who's there already doing well.

It just sounds like whining from Lee. It sucks for him but I doubt he'd get much sympathy especially considering he's had his fair share of times where he's been picked in the team ahead of a more deserving candidate just because he's quicker. How many times did he then get pummelled?

I think its a case of him believeing his own publicity.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I think its a case of him believeing his own publicity.

I'd say it's more of a case of him believing that he is in the best form of his life and that he could prove himself in the test arena now if he got an opportunity. I can certainly see why he would be frustrated. Regardless he has to wait until there is a place for him, I just hope it isn't too long.

 

[Top_Cat]

I'd say it's more of a case of him believing that he is in the best form of his life and that he could prove himself in the test arena now if he got an opportunity. I can certainly see why he would be frustrated. Regardless he has to wait until there is a place for him, I just hope it isn't too long.

One doesn't always get picked when one is at his best. That's the nature of a truly classy player; one who is able to, when picked and regardless of 'form', still acquit themselves well and give the selectors the indication that they don't have to just wait until they're at their best before picking them. Was Kasper always picked at peak form? No way. Hayden? Certainly not. Martyn? Certainly he seemed to be a broader player a few years ago.

A truly classy player will still do well even when not quite at their best. Why should the selector pick Lee when they know that if he's not bowling at his very best, he'll get smacked (if history is any indication)? Kasper bowls straight no matter what his form as does Gillespie as does McGrath. That makes them classier options than Lee because they win the high-percentage battles and do the basics well.

Remember; form is temporary, class is permanent. If Lee is truly a Test match bowler, it really won't matter when they pick him.

That said, this situation where he's not playing ANY cricket is just stupid. How on Earth is supposed to get some match practice if he keeps getting made 12th and not released to play for anyone else? It's not as if he needs the 'experience'. I remember Andy Bichel going through exactly the same thing a few years ago.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

One doesn't always get picked when one is at his best. That's the nature of a truly classy player; one who is able to, when picked and regardless of 'form', still acquit themselves well and give the selectors the indication that they don't have to just wait until they're at their best before picking them. Was Kasper always picked at peak form? No way. Hayden? Certainly not. Martyn? Certainly he seemed to be a broader player a few years ago.

A truly classy player will still do well even when not quite at their best. Why should the selector pick Lee when they know that if he's not bowling at his very best, he'll get smacked (if history is any indication)? Kasper bowls straight no matter what his form as does Gillespie as does McGrath. That makes them classier options than Lee because they win the high-percentage battles and do the basics well.

Remember; form is temporary, class is permanent. If Lee is truly a Test match bowler, it really won't matter when they pick him.

That said, this situation where he's not playing ANY cricket is just stupid. How on Earth is supposed to get some match practice if he keeps getting made 12th and not released to play for anyone else? It's not as if he needs the 'experience'. I remember Andy Bichel going through exactly the same thing a few years ago.

Of course. I was more referring to the fact that he is currently 28, and if he has to wait 5 years to get his shot in the test side he will be well past his most lethal, and I genuinely believe he has the capability to be a test bowler of high quality now that he has ironed out various flaws in his game. It's also frustrating watching somebody carry the drinks over and over and not play when they are in top form. Form might be temporary, but it is still worth something, and watching it go to waste is a bit disappointing.

 

[Top_Cat]

Of course. I was more referring to the fact that he is currently 28, and if he has to wait 5 years to get his shot in the test side he will be well past his most lethal, and I genuinely believe he has the capability to be a test bowler of high quality now that he has ironed out various flaws in his game. It's also frustrating watching somebody carry the drinks over and over and not play when they are in top form. Form might be temporary, but it is still worth something, and watching it go to waste is a bit disappointing.

Absolutely but you're talking about the situation with just about every great Test side in history. For every great side, there are a few 'coulda beens' who missed out and would have been great players in any other side. As long as the side is winning, it sucks for them personally but that's life and international cricket.

Examples; Sylvester Clarke for the WI, Stuart Law for Australia, Darren Lehmann (when he was reaming both Australian and English FC attacks in the 90's) for Australia, Vinod Kambli for India, etc. All potentially great players but a victim of circumstances where the side was doing very well with the players already in the side. It sucks for them personally but as I said, if the side is winning, well that's just too bad.

It's not as if Lee hasn't had opportunities, either. I'ma huge Lee fan but I'm also a huge fan of the Australian team doing well. If Lee was in the side, regardless of how well he bowled, I think it would negatively affect the side. That's too great a risk to take when the primary goal should be side winning even if some players' careers are sacrificed for that to occur.

Just slapping in the 'best' players doesn't always work; when I was playing district cricket, in our side we had 6 current or former State players in the side. We didn't even make the final because although proven players at that level, the morale at the club was shot by players, who were far better at playing as part of a team, languishing in the lower grades. We tried to buy a premiership by putting 'better' players in the side but we fell to bits. It was actually quite embarrassing.

Lee will just have to bide his time. And if it never comes because players already in the side are doing the job well, that's just too bad. It's not unusual for that to happen to form players at all.

 

[Mister Wright]

Of course. I was more referring to the fact that he is currently 28, and if he has to wait 5 years to get his shot in the test side he will be well past his most lethal, and I genuinely believe he has the capability to be a test bowler of high quality now that he has ironed out various flaws in his game. It's also frustrating watching somebody carry the drinks over and over and not play when they are in top form. Form might be temporary, but it is still worth something, and watching it go to waste is a bit disappointing.

But the thing is. His lethalness is not needed because we are winning games. We have now won 6 tests in a row, won a series in India for the first time in God knows how long and beat Sri Lanka 3-0 away after being behind in every test, and IIRC we did that in all but one test without Lee. Simple to say - Not Needed.

 

[Top_Cat]

Just want to say that I absolutely agree that Lee is bowling VERY well right now (and in fan made the prediction in my Prognostications thread that if Lee was picked, he'd be a top 5 bowler in two years) and has improved so much BUT I still don't think he should be picked simply because the guys there are winning games for Australia.

Still, it's great that Lee's putting the pressure on Kasper to continue to do well, really. He certainly won't relax!

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

But the thing is. His lethalness is not needed because we are winning games. We have now won 6 tests in a row, won a series in India for the first time in God knows how long and beat Sri Lanka 3-0 away after being behind in every test, and IIRC we did that in all but one test without Lee. Simple to say - Not Needed.

Australia hasn't exactly dominated though. It's more testament to the new-found resolve of the side that they ahve won everything in sight recently than actual outright dominance like was seen in the 2001-2002 period. Australia have regularly found themselves facing a first innings deficit or a batting collapse. The bowling and lower order partnerships have saved them, but there is undoubtedly room for improvement. The "we are winning so nothing should be done" theory doesn't really work.

 

[Mister Wright]

Australia hasn't exactly dominated though. It's more testament to the new-found resolve of the side that they ahve won everything in sight recently than actual outright dominance like was seen in the 2001-2002 period. Australia have regularly found themselves facing a first innings deficit or a batting collapse. The bowling and lower order partnerships have saved them, but there is undoubtedly room for improvement. The "we are winning so nothing should be done" theory doesn't really work.

It does if your winning.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Just want to say that I absolutely agree that Lee is bowling VERY well right now (and in fan made the prediction in my Prognostications thread that if Lee was picked, he'd be a top 5 bowler in two years) and has improved so much BUT I still don't think he should be picked simply because the guys there are winning games for Australia.

Still, it's great that Lee's putting the pressure on Kasper to continue to do well, really. He certainly won't relax!

Agreed, both on Lee's potential and the positive effect on the team. I honestly believe though that Australia would be a stronger side if Lee was playing, so I can't help but hope that Kasper has a few bad games and opens the door. I'm not quite sadistic enough to hope for an injury.

 

[Top_Cat]

Australia hasn't exactly dominated though. It's more testament to the new-found resolve of the side that they ahve won everything in sight recently than actual outright dominance like was seen in the 2001-2002 period. Australia have regularly found themselves facing a first innings deficit or a batting collapse. The bowling and lower order partnerships have saved them, but there is undoubtedly room for improvement. The "we are winning so nothing should be done" theory doesn't really work.[/v]

That's been the case for a few years now, though. In that 2001-02 period, they lost to India in India remember and NZ gave them one hell of a fright. Yes they hammered England in England but there were a couple of hiccups there too. This current side beat SL 3-0 away (when no other team had even managed to win a series or a TEST there in years), beat India 2-1 away and mercilessly smacked the rest. Surely the current team would come very close to thrashing the 2001-02 model?

As far as 'lower-order partnerships' saving them, I think it's fair to say that the failing has been in the batting a bit but still, Martyn has been amazing, Clarke has had a decent start, Langer SUPERB an Lehmann was great until recently too. The bowling just hasn't changed much at all.

No-one is saying that because Australia is winning, NOTHING should change (far from it); we're just saying that the current combination is working and that's because the current bowlers are bowling well. Ergo, there's no 'need' to change whilst they are working well as a team AND (just as Lee is) are all in form.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

That's been the case for a few years now, though. In that 2001-02 period, they lost to India in India remember and NZ gave them one hell of a fright. Yes they hammered England in England but there were a couple of hiccups there too. This current side beat SL 3-0 away (when no other team had even managed to win a series or a TEST there in years), beat India 2-1 away and mercilessly smacked the rest. Surely the current team would come very close to thrashing the 2001-02 model?

Yes I think it would too, but that doesn't mean that it has played as well as it possibly could all the time, or that there is no room for improvement.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yes I think it would too, but that doesn't mean that it has played as well as it possibly could all the time, or that there is no room for improvement.

Yeah but what team does play to potential all the time? And before you say the WI team of the 80's, check some scorecards and see that there were quite a few times when the Gomes/Logie/Dujon combination hit them out of the mire when the top-order didn't fire.

But you're still really talking about the batting. All o the Aussie bowlers are in form. Who would you drop and why? I've said a few times here, there are plenty of reasons to pick any combination of four bowlers in three spots but absolutely NO reasons to drop any of the bowlers already there.

 

[Black Thunder]

how long has the rule been in where the follow on changes if a day's play has been washed out??? I had never heard of it until this test??


personally, i don't like it.