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***Official*** New Zealand in Zimbabwe & Zimbabwe/New Zealand/India ODI Tri-Series

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Well, inspite of what Sourav has done for India in the past (AND THAT IS A LOT), I do think that it is time for him to step down and allow the team to be built for the next world cup. He has taken India from being at the bottom of the heap to be the runners up of the World Cup and to be the third best test team (inspite of poor form over the past one and a half years). He should not tarnish his legacy by staying on.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
honestbharani said:
Well, inspite of what Sourav has done for India in the past (AND THAT IS A LOT), I do think that it is time for him to step down and allow the team to be built for the next world cup. He has taken India from being at the bottom of the heap to be the runners up of the World Cup and to be the third best test team (inspite of poor form over the past one and a half years). He should not tarnish his legacy by staying on.
I dont think anyone questions that, but you should ask any Cricketer, any sportsman , athlete or any other professional about quitting the game or their profession for good and they will tell you it is the toughest decision for them. Ganguly is no exception, he is only 32/33 and which is very young for a cricketer to retire and he somehow thinks that he still has it in him and we certainly cant blame him for that. He has the right to do so.

It is now selectors' responsibility to decide what they want to do, Sack him, drop him or whatever.

As for the legacy, I dont think sportsmen think about that too much. If you follow American Football, you will remember the name 'Jerry Rice' who recently retired at the age of 42. He has often been asked about 'retiring too late and hurting his legacy' , and every time he answered 'that he didn't create the legacy, it was thrust upon him. He played for so long because he loved the game and that is his life'.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Sanz said:
I dont think anyone questions that, but you should ask any Cricketer, any sportsman , athlete or any other professional about quitting the game or their profession for good and they will tell you it is the toughest decision for them. Ganguly is no exception, he is only 32/33 and which is very young for a cricketer to retire and he somehow thinks that he still has it in him and we certainly cant blame him for that. He has the right to do so.

It is now selectors' responsibility to decide what they want to do, Sack him, drop him or whatever.

As for the legacy, I dont think sportsmen think about that too much. If you follow American Football, you will remember the name 'Jerry Rice' who recently retired at the age of 42. He has often been asked about 'retiring too late and hurting his legacy' , and every time he answered 'that he didn't create the legacy, it was thrust upon him. He played for so long because he loved the game and that is his life'.
Well, I understand all that, but the fact is that Sourav today looks hopeless against bowling of any sustained quality. I am not saying he should quit the game or anything. I am just saying that he should relinquish captaincy.


But, as you said, it is a tough decision for any sportsman to make. I hope the selectors do the right thing and drop him after this series. Allow him time at the Ranji level, let him play both the FC games and the OD games and see how his form goes and if he is good enough, he can always come back to play for India as a player.
 

maxpower

U19 Cricketer
Sanz said:
Sorry, If(and only IF) Greg really did that then he should immidiately be sacked as coach and should never be allowed to talk about Indian cricket ever again.

If he really wanted someone else as captain, then he should have made it clear to the selection committee, BCCI or whoever is making that decision. He would have got my support and I would have respected him for his stand. If he wanted to confront Ganguly then he should have asked him to quit before the team left India for the Zimbabwe, but he didn't do that either.

What he did was worse, on the eve of the match he asked the leader of the team to quit and which probably divided the Indian dressing room for the first time since 1999-2000.
Maybe greg's playing head games with ganguly, trying to put him on spot and under pressure and forcing him to perform.
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Sanz said:
Sorry, If(and only IF) Greg really did that then he should immidiately be sacked as coach and should never be allowed to talk about Indian cricket ever again.

If he really wanted someone else as captain, then he should have made it clear to the selection committee, BCCI or whoever is making that decision. He would have got my support and I would have respected him for his stand. If he wanted to confront Ganguly then he should have asked him to quit before the team left India for the Zimbabwe, but he didn't do that either.

What he did was worse, on the eve of the match he asked the leader of the team to quit and which probably divided the Indian dressing room for the first time since 1999-2000.
Because the selection committee, who are basically pawns of the BCCI administration are going to pay heed to his recommendation ? Get real.

And what makes you think he wouldnt have asked for Ganguly to be replaced as captain before this instance ? Are you absolutely sure that he had no input in Dravid being retained as captain in the SL series even after Gangs returned to the team ?

As for divisions in the dressing room, its laughable to suggest him as the cause. Would Yuvraj have verbally abused his captain on the field in SL if that captain was Ganguly ? No. But he is a lackey of Gangs, and felt it appropriate to undermine Dravids authority openly when he was the captain of the team. And you blame the "outsider" for the factionalism !
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Deja moo said:
Because the selection committee, who are basically pawns of the BCCI administration are going to pay heed to his recommendation ? Get real.
And that's why he chose to confront the captain of his team on the eve of the test match. Any sane person would chose a better time for that and read what 'Rahul Dravid' the most sensible guy in the team said. He said "this is not the time to change captain". But well, since it has come from Greg, so it must be right, isn't it ?

And what makes you think he wouldnt have asked for Ganguly to be replaced as captain before this instance ? Are you absolutely sure that he had no input in Dravid being retained as captain in the SL series even after Gangs returned to the team ?
May be he did, may be he did not. But then he should have asked Ganguly in India itself to quit. Why wait until we land in Zimbabwe, and are getting ready to play the test match. And guess what two players whose place in the team questioned were the highest scorers.

As for divisions in the dressing room, its laughable to suggest him as the cause. Would Yuvraj have verbally abused his captain on the field in SL if that captain was Ganguly ? No. But he is a lackey of Gangs, and felt it appropriate to undermine Dravids authority openly when he was the captain of the team. And you blame the "outsider" for the factionalism !
Another one of those conspiracy theories and I will not believe it unless I hear/read something concrete. I dont believe in tabloid news.

Anywas If Yuvraj did abuse, then Dravid as captain should have taken the descpliniary action against Yuvraj as the captain/leader of this team.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
yeah, I didn't watch that Yuvi incident either. And it seems that Greg only said that because he felt Sourav wasn't in good enough form to maintain a place in the first eleven. Apparently, he felt that the ODIs might help Sourav retain his form but since he wasn't anything special in the ODIs or in the warm up, he felt that Sourav wasn't part of the best eleven and as such, asked him to step down. That is what I got from what Sunny, Arun Lal and Ravi Shastri said during ESPN Star's show.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Argh this is a mess.

Does anyone know whether this Yuvraj/Dravid incident is true? If so, someone should slap Yuvraj.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Actually that is not a very valid reason, IMO. Guess how greg must be feeling right now as Ganguly ended up scoring more than most in-form guys ?
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Sanz said:
Actually that is not a very valid reason, IMO. Guess how greg must be feeling right now as Ganguly ended up scoring more than most in-form guys ?
It is not very valid in hindsight. But at the time when it was said, I thought it was reasonably valid. Anyways, as Arun Lal put it, it was all said for the betterment of Indian cricket and both Sourav and Greg are adults and should understand that they are on the same side. Sunny pointed out how the Indian system works differently to the Australian set up, where the team is chosen first and the captain later. It is stupid but that is how it works in India. Maybe Greg thought it was like the situation with Mark Taylor when he was dropped inspite of being captain during the tour to RSA in 97.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Well my response/raction would have been same even if Sourav was out on Zero. If GC asked Sourav to quit before the test match, then it is wrong.

Anyways, here is GC's interview with Ravi Shastri, SMG & Harsha Bhogle :-

Harsha : Irfan Pathan, the man of the match, had a pretty good game isnt it?

GC:Yes its a very good all round performance, He's worked very hard on all aspects of his game, fielding, batting as well as bowling. He is swinging the new ball well and he bowled a good length in this game, he felt he was little short on the first day, the second morning and the last evening, I thought he bowled pretty well

Ravi: Greg, good performance by India to win this game, but how do you take it forward to Harare? Do you want certain things to improve even more when you go into Harare?

GC: Yes Ravi, we have just got to keep working on those process, have to stop worrying about outcomes, you get ahead of yourself or you start falling behind yourself thinking abt how things could have been better, and I think if we can continue to get our process right, bowl the ball in the right areas, put pressure on the opposition both with the ball and in the field and put pressure on the opposition by scoring runs and running well between the wickets, these are things we are judging ourselves at the moment and we need to keep improving in those areas. Zimbabwe is an young team an inexperienced team, we will get more pressure than they were able to put on us from other teams, so we need to keep developing those process

Harsha: And as well Greg as I suspect get rid of the irritants that can sometimes come in the way of process, that seems to the process is confined to what happens in the team meetings and on what happens on the ground, Sometimes they can be irritants to the process and we need to debug it as quickly as possible

GC: Yeah, there are some things that you cant control obviously Harsha, what things are being said outside in the media by supporters whatever, we cant worry about that, we have to concentrate and focus on what we are doing and we are attempting to do that and hopefully get better at it.

Harsha: Well you have never played in India Greg, but I guess the process of understanding India is well under way, having been a month and a half into this job and as you know we Indias are very passionate cricket followers and want to know everything about the side, Is there is a little reassurance that you want to give to this Indian side that look there is a lot happening there in the media, but this Indian side will continue to play the kind of cricket you wanted them to play?

GC: Well thats what we can do, and thats what we want to do, Obviously we are happy that so many people follow the Indian team so closely but from time to time it can be intrusive if we let it and its important that we focus on what we are doing and whatever happens outside the group we cant control and we cant spend too much time worrying about, we just got make sure that we keep doing what we do as well as possible

Harsha: Was it a bother though, the fact that somuch attention is devoted to things that happened off the field than on the field?

GC, Oh not really, I have been thru all this stuff before Harsha, always going to be something bubbling around the place, once it gets a bit of oxygen it can take off and be blown out of all proportions, we cant worry about these things like that and get involved in it, we have to keep focusing on what we are doing.

Harsha: And looking ahead to Harare, I know historical stats dont have too much meaning but India has never won a test match, infact lost two

GC: Thankyou verymuch for reminding this. Obviously again we cant control what happened in the past and all we can do is look forward to whats coming up next week and prepare ourselves as well as possible, I have been very happy with the way the guys have performed, training sessions have been very good, very enthusiastic, the support staff have done a fantastic job, all in all we are doing as much as possible what we can do at the moment and we just got to keep winning, get into a habit of winning, it takes a lot of pressure off in lot of areas

Harsha: There are a couple of aspects a lot of people in India would be focussing on in the next 3 or 4 days, is how this team get its act together because there has been a few things said in recent times by couple of lead batsmen and obviously thats not going to help matters, whats the team going to do to get everyone together, maybe just say look our job is to play cricket

GC: Well yeah we have talked about those issues and I mean as things come up from time to time, people get frustrated, say things that perhaps they dont really mean or as important as they are made out to be, again its a matter of focussing on the process and if we can continue to have success, I think lot of these other issues just fade away

Ravi: Greg, what time you playing golf with Sourav tomorrow

GC: Probably in the afternoon sometime I would think

Harsha: Did you have a long chat with him, because the way he played, bcause lot of us here have watched Sourav Ganguly bat for the last 9 years now, and hardly ever seen this kind of batting from him, grafting out 6 hrs to score a hundred, was that something you have talked about this kind of innings as well together

GC: We have talked about a whole range of issues, including batting, captaincy and all sorts of things and we continue to talk about those things but we got to understand that Sourav was under lot of pressure and obviously he also wanted to put that pressure behind him, he worked very hard to get that hundred, I would rather look at the positives and the result of the game than get involved in anything else[/b]

Harsha: One other thing we saw this morning is we havent seen too much of when Harbhajan got his 200th wicket is he bowled a lot more with fizz, that he bowled a lot more round the wicket , was it something you were experimenting with?

GC: Yes we worked on those issues with Harbhajan, looking at different angles, talking to him about different angles and different batsmen and different ways to bowl, particularly when conditions arent in favor, when ball spinning a lot sometimes its good to change the angles, Yeah he is had a bit of pressure on him as well, getting the 200th wicket I think, took the pressure off a bit, I thought he bowled pretty well this morning, So I mean its a matter of confidence, continue to take wickets, if he can do that, I am sure his bowling will only get better and better

Harsha: Ravi has talked about a round of Golf, Arun lal was here and he said you might go bungee jumping with Sourav together

GC : Well he is on his own there, I am afraid bungee is not my go

Harsha: Thankyou very much Greg for taking time off and congratulations on your first test win

GC: Thankyou very much
 

Deja moo

International Captain
Sanz said:
And that's why he chose to confront the captain of his team on the eve of the test match. Any sane person would chose a better time for that and read what 'Rahul Dravid' the most sensible guy in the team said. He said "this is not the time to change captain". But well, since it has come from Greg, so it must be right, isn't it ?
Theres no better time than to give a guy as many opportunities as possible, and then to confront him with the plain facts. What would you have preferred? That he say so before assessing his form ? And what else do you expect Dravid to say? That it is the right time to change the captain ? Hes not stupid and knows that its better to avoid controversy, unlike Gangs whos ignited this entire thing with his ramblings to the media.



May be he did, may be he did not. But then he should have asked Ganguly in India itself to quit. Why wait until we land in Zimbabwe, and are getting ready to play the test match.
Because it is better to assess a players performances over a period of time and then make a decision rather than jump the gun earlier. Gangs was given plenty of opportunities to prove himself in the ODI series , and he couldnt.

And guess what two players whose place in the team questioned were the highest scorers.
yes, because a 100 in 263 balls against the weakest attack in international cricket is such a great achievement. Kudos to Ganguly. Oh, hes shut me up for good. I'll never question his abilities again ...



Anywas If Yuvraj did abuse, then Dravid as captain should have taken the descpliniary action against Yuvraj as the captain/leader of this team.
Ganguly cannot keep the guy out of the team, what chances do you think Dravid had of successfully taking disciplinary action against gel-boy ?
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Deja moo said:
Theres no better time than to give a guy as many opportunities as possible, and then to confront him with the plain facts. What would you have preferred? That he say so before assessing his form ? And what else do you expect Dravid to say? That it is the right time to change the captain ? Hes not stupid and knows that its better to avoid controversy, unlike Gangs whos ignited this entire thing with his ramblings to the media.
What are you talking about ? Are you suggesting that Greg didn't know about Ganguly's form until he landed in Zimbabwe and all at a sudden after watching him play in ODIs he decided that his form was not good enough to play test matches ? Since when have ODIs become a performance criteria for selecting a test and if ODI form was really the criteria why didn't Greg ask Dravid to step down as well ?

As for Dravid's reaction, according to you Dravid was just being diplomatic. Well Dravid doesn't need to be diplomatic with his team mates or coach and I dont believe he was. Yes I was expecting Dravid to speak his mind and IMO he did, I have no reason to believe otherwise. and to be very frank Gangs didn't ignite this whole thing. You should try to get more information befor blaming him for this mess. It was VVS who on the previous day, after his century, talked about 'Negative Vibes' in the team and he just wanted to 'Prove a point'. Harsha (Bhogle) took the clue from there and on the national television kept prodding Gangs again and again.


Because it is better to assess a players performances over a period of time and then make a decision rather than jump the gun earlier. Gangs was given plenty of opportunities to prove himself in the ODI series , and he couldnt.
Anyone who has watched Gangs play in last 2-3 years knows that his time has come and he shouldn't even be there in the team as a player (let alone as captain) except probably Greg Chappell. One would expect that a coach who spends more time than an ordinary fan coaching Ganguly would have a better idea about his improvement in batting, but no it seems Greg had no idea about that and he was somewhat hoping that out of nowhere Ganguly will come out good in ODI series when most of us knew this already. We knew that Ganguly needs to go before the ODI series itself.

And look where Greg stands right now. He just saved him from being the first coach to lose to this Zimbabwe team.


yes, because a 100 in 263 balls against the weakest attack in international cricket is such a great achievement. Kudos to Ganguly. Oh, hes shut me up for good. I'll never question his abilities again ...
How does it matter who it was made against, If it wasn't for him(and Laxman) India would have ended up scoring less than Zimbabwe. Of course his ability to bat will be questioned and I am not saying that he certainly has cemented his place as a player but I dont see how his innings any less important in the circumstances.


Ganguly cannot keep the guy out of the team, what chances do you think Dravid had of successfully taking disciplinary action against gel-boy ?
Erm how can Ganguly keep Yuvraj out of the team when Dravid was the Captain in SL ?
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Good start for India. It seems a few great catches were taken. But Sehwag is out again in the 40s. He can't score against the weak sides, can he? ;)
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Sanz said:
Erm how can Ganguly keep Yuvraj out of the team when Dravid was the Captain in SL ?
I think he was referring to reports that stated Ganguly wanted Kaif in the test team over Yuvraj, but those above him wanted Yuvraj and thus Yuvraj played the 1st test against Zimbabwe.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
honestbharani said:
Good start for India. It seems a few great catches were taken. But Sehwag is out again in the 40s. He can't score against the weak sides, can he? ;)
I think he has too much fun out there :p
 

Chubb

International Regular
I cannot believe the utter stupidity of playing Waddy "Worse bowler than Trescothick" Mwayenga (it's true, you know) ahead of Gav Ewing and Anthony Ireland who are manifestly superior cricketers in all departments. Insane, insane descision from the selectors. He's bowled 2 overs for 18 runs for christ's sake :@ . His ODI bowling average is 157! his economy rate over 7!
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
Chubb said:
I cannot believe the utter stupidity of playing Waddy "Worse bowler than Trescothick" Mwayenga (it's true, you know) ahead of Gav Ewing and Anthony Ireland who are manifestly superior cricketers in all departments. Insane, insane descision from the selectors. He's bowled 2 overs for 18 runs for christ's sake :@ . His ODI bowling average is 157! his economy rate over 7!
He's black. Nuff said.
 

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