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**Official** New Zealand in West Indies

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Southee's problems seem a bit surprising. We all know what he was like when he debuted, had a bit of success and then was found out as being too one-dimensional. After that:
- people said he needed to bowl faster. So he bowled faster.
- people said he needed to get more seam movement off the deck. So he learned to bowl an in-cutter.
- people said he needed to lose the puppy fat and get fitter. So he got fitter.

And yet he's still not a good bowler - the things above are only superficially what a good bowler is.
 

CharlesLara

U19 12th Man
Southee's problems seem a bit surprising. We all know what he was like when he debuted, had a bit of success and then was found out as being too one-dimensional. After that:
- people said he needed to bowl faster. So he bowled faster.
- people said he needed to get more seam movement off the deck. So he learned to bowl an in-cutter.
- people said he needed to lose the puppy fat and get fitter. So he got fitter.

And yet he's still not a good bowler - the things above are only superficially what a good bowler is.
The first point about him bowling faster is in my opinion what has been his downfall, and NZ's obsession with trying to find the next Shane Bond needs to stop. Southee has always been an out and out swing bowler, that being his biggest strength and his bread and butter. Expanding your arsenal of deliveries is only helpful IF its not at the expense of your stock ball.

Just another example of NZ cricket overcomplicating a simple situation.
 

Howsie

International Captain
He was still the cream of our crop and second only to Bracewell overall, and Gillespie in the SA series.

And to cross over your cricsim argument to here somewhat, he outbowled the guy you're pumping to join the test squad quite comprehensively as well. Southee was appalling on those same green seamers.
So our third best seamer? Doesn't exactly bring a lot of value to the team then.

As for Southee yeah he was poor last summer but we don't exactly have a lot of other options to choose from, unless you're keen on seeing a Mills or Arnel return to the team team. I wouldn't play him, not ahead of Boult anyway (or Wagner tbf) but he'd be my pick to replace Gillespie for sure.

Really don't see the point of picking five bowlers either tbh, someone will just end up getting really underbowled with Vettori and Nethula likely to play.
 

Howsie

International Captain
Southee's problems seem a bit surprising. We all know what he was like when he debuted, had a bit of success and then was found out as being too one-dimensional. After that:
- was dropped every second test generally for bowlers who didn't have half the talent he has.

Played it's part in stunting his development. Nice to see Boult get of to the same start to begin his career too 8-)
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
- was dropped every second test generally for bowlers who didn't have half the talent he has.

Played it's part in stunting his development. Nice to see Boult get of to the same start to begin his career too 8-)
Cool story bro, except before getting the boot against SA, Southee had been selected in 12 out of the last 13 tests that he was available for (and missing one game through injury), a run in the team stretching back to November 2009. He had plenty of chances to find a groove and mature into test cricket, but sadly things never quite clicked. It's about time he went away and got some FC cricket under his belt (preferably with one of the counties - although he's admittedly already spurned just such an opportunity in order to sit on the bench for the ****ing chennai superkings).
 
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CharlesLara

U19 12th Man
Cool story bro, except before getting the boot against SA, Southee had been selected in 12 out of the last 13 tests that he was available for (and missing one game through injury), a run in the team stretching back to November 2009. He had plenty of chances to find a groove and mature into test cricket, but sadly things never quite clicked. It's about time he went away and got some FC cricket under his belt (preferably with one of the counties - although he's admittedly already spurned just such an opportunity in order to sit on the bench for the ****ing chennai superkings).
Bingo. He just never really learnt anything, or matured at all, he just seemed to get more and more frustrated at everything around himself instead of addressing his very underwhelming performances and was rightly dropped in the SA series.

A guy averaging 44 with the ball in 17 tests in enough evidence of how mediocre he has been.
 

Howsie

International Captain
New Zealand have played 33 test matches since Tim Southee's debut, and he's only played in 17, yep. Makes his debut in Napier, dropped after his second test at Lords and isn't seen again. Play's his third test at Brisbane, is dropped after his fourth test at Adelaide. Returns for his 5th test against India in the third test, is dropped again. He was New Zealand's best bowler during Australia's two test tour in early 2010 (in Hamilton anyway) and yet he still managed to find himself out of the team during our next tour. He was treated like ****e during his first couple of years in test cricket, in, out, in, out, never given a decent run. So basically during his first two years of international cricket Southee played in only 50 percent of the games he was available for.

But hey, of course that wouldn't play a part in hindering his development......
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Tend to agree with Bahnz and CharlesLara - Southee's been given plenty of opportunities and just has not developed the mental side of his game. Can point to minor external reasons all we want but it's ultimately his responsibility to own his bowling, apply some intelligence and improve.

Not saying he won't do this at some point - I still hope he will.
 

Howsie

International Captain
Yeah, plenty of opportunities recently, and quite rightly dropped during our last series. My point is if you're looking for a reason (and it doesn't have to be the sole reason) why he hasn't kicked on like many have expected him too look at how he was treated during his first two and abit years of test cricket. He was never given a consistant run in the test squad, I mean I think it took almost two years before he was given a chance to play three tests in a row, which is staggering really, a good way to mess with someones head.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, plenty of opportunities recently, and quite rightly dropped during our last series. My point is if you're looking for a reason (and it doesn't have to be the sole reason) why he hasn't kicked on like many have expected him too look at how he was treated during his first two and abit years of test cricket. He was never given a consistant run in the test squad, I mean I think it took almost two years before he was given a chance to play three tests in a row, which is staggering really, a good way to mess with someones head.
To be honest, if being dropped a couple of times early in your career is enough to permanently stunt your development, then I think Southee's got bigger problems than his bowling action. Not to say that Southee wasn't unlucky with his selection. He definitely should've gotten a longer run in the team after the 2008 Aus tour (but the selection around bowlers was generally weird during that time, Chris Martin got dropped after the same tour for similarly opaque reasons). But good, mentally tough cricketers would use that as motivation to really work on their game, come back and establish their place (such as Dale Steyn did after being selected and dropped in 2005).

In my opinion, Southee's problems are twofold:

a) He was selected when he was too young. The case for his selection was fairly weak, he had a good, but not outstanding FC record (averaging around 28 iirc) and had played only a handful of matches. The selection seemed to be more based around public excitement at his u19 success than his domestic form demanding a place in the side. As a result he was thrust into the spotlight, which involved all sorts of public comment on his action, variations, and in particular, his pace (just weeks after his first success, that moron Mark Richardson was already moaning about how Southee wasn't a genuine quick). As a result he's spent the last few years tinkering and adjusting his bowling style and strategies under intense scrutiny, rather than naturally developing in a more forgiving environment.

b) He simply hasn't had the opportunity to play any FC cricket. Rightly, or wrongly, he's become a fixture in the ODI side, which gives him little chance to play for ND in the plunket shield. When he does play, its usually one or two games at the start of the season, when conditions are stacked in his favour. Being an ODI player has also encouraged him to focus on aspects of his bowling that are irrelavent to test cricket (e.g. bowling yorkers and slower balls), and focus less on swing bowling. That's why other bowlers, like Boult and Bracewell (lesser cricketers at u19 level), are now bowling better than he is in test cricket. They've actually had a decent opportunity in the last couple of years to play some FC cricket, and learn what does and doesn't work for them in the longer version of the game.

That's why, imo Southee needs some FC cricket (preferably of a slightly higher standard than the plunket shield, but anything will do at this point).
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
To be honest, if being dropped a couple of times early in your career is enough to permanently stunt your development, then I think Southee's got bigger problems than his bowling action.

Being an ODI player has also encouraged him to focus on aspects of his bowling that are irrelevant to test cricket (e.g. bowling yorkers and slower balls), and focus less on swing bowling.
Ya, especially agree with the parts above. Limited overs also encourages the bowler to aim to bowl at least three or four variations per over, rather than be content to plug away on a single line & length.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
New Zealand: (possible) 1 Rob Nicol, 2 Martin Guptill, 3 Kane Williamson (capt), 4 Daniel Flynn, 5 Dean Brownlie, 6 Tom Latham/BJ Watling (wk), 7 Jacob Oram, 8 Tim Southee, 9 Nathan McCullum, 10 Doug Bracewell/Tarun Nethula 11 Kyle Mills

Don't fancy our chances. Team would look so much better with Styris inserted into that group. But he couldn't play forever.

BJ Watling does not have the game to be a number 6 in an ODI.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Expect a scrapped 15(30) from him at best. Though we could get the Watling who showed up against Pakistan in Napier that one time, you never know.
 

Howsie

International Captain
I wish New Zealand would go with Daniel Flynn up top. It's beyond queer that he's now seen as an opener in the test team but a middle order player in the limited overs squad.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
McCullum is really ****ting on his team with his absence.
Pretty sure it's an enforced layoff for McCullum due to amount of cricket coming up.

We seem to have a lot of test batsmen in our ODI side - they should be able to score reasonable runs but only at SR of 70-80. Would usually be ok if also had some good hitters, but a little weak in that area right now. Also if our bowling + Windies batting from T20 is anything to go by, we need to score 10-20% above par score every innings, and this will be difficult for our slow scorers.
 

Meridio

International Regular
Pleasantly surprised to see this on Sky in the UK.

Anyway, looks like there's a bit of swing around. Suppose the good thing for us is that the white ball doesn't usually swing for too long.
 

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